Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next 75 Replies Latest reply: Mar 18, 2008 10:34 AM by Peter da Silva Go to original post
  • jportway Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)
    As I see it, the problem here isn't so much that Apple appear to have abandoned Java - which is their prerogative, I guess - it's that they have thousands of developers keep working on OSX under the assumption that Apple was trying the make it "the best platform for Java development". Even now, despite all the outcry on blogs, forums and mailing lists across the net there doesn't seem to be any statement from Apple about what their plans are. I've been working for 2 years with a company developing a new large screen LED display system - it's Java with native code for the video pipeline bits. Up to now it's been designed to run on OSX machines. But that just doesn't seem like a wise decision any more. Millions of dollars have been invested in this project - it's hard to justify continuing to risk that investment on a platform when I have no idea whether the rug is going to be pulled out from under me at any moment.

    If we had been told what was happening months or years ago (or even if someone would make a statement NOW), if there had been any kind of openness and transparency, we could have made whatever decisions we had to make. Instead, every java developer is feeling mislead and betrayed. Maybe Apple aren't abandoning Java. That would be great. Maybe they're planning to open source their version - that would be great too, as long as it still gets installed into the standard OS distribution. But even if everything is rosy in Java-OSX land a lot of damage has already been done - a lot of trust and faith has been lost, and I personally would like to work on a platform where I feel the developers have some respect for the people that use it. Whatever is happening now doesn't mitigate the fact that thousands of developers and their projects have been left hanging in the air like Wile E Coyote running off a cliff. Apple put up one of those billboards that look like a road heading off into the distance and we blindly and trustingly just ran right through it and discovered there's nothing but a long, long fall on the other side.
  • m0thr4 Level 1 Level 1 (95 points)
    Not wishing to start a flame war here, but if you need to be developing on the bleeding edge of Java, then you would be foolish to expect to do that on a Mac. In fact I have to wonder which companies would sanction the issue of Apple Macs to Java developers. Companies with money to burn? I cannot think of a single advantage in using a Mac for Java Development over, say, an Ubuntu workstation.

    I work for a tiny consultancy company writing J2EE software for airports. When an Acer Aspire laptop costs +one quarter+ the price of a similarly specced Apple laptop, and Ubuntu costing precisely nothing, there was no need for a debate as to which platform we should choose.

    Before upgrading to Leopard, I did use my own Mac when working from home, and I found the beta JDK 1.6 to be more than adequate (although the performance of both Eclipse and Netbeans left a lot to be desired when compared with their performance on Ubuntu). Obviously that will no longer be the case.
  • jportway Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)
    well, it's possible that you don't understand what kind of work I do then. Java is just part of the picture. The reason I use a Mac for development is that I do a lot of media work as part of what I do, and I've used macs to do it since the late eighties.
    I don't need to be on the "bleeding edge" - the bleeding edge is Java 7. As other people have pointed out java 6 is a year old. For one project I'm doing I need 64 bit addressing - Java 5 just can't handle enough memory. In fact it's interesting you suggest Ubuntu, because that's what this whole situation has forced me to consider. I'll probably just develop on that. As I said in my posting though, for me this isn't so much a problem of working around the current situation. We can probably shift development away from the mac - it'll take time but it's possible. The problem for me is the extraordinary disrespect shown to developers in leaving them out in the cold like this with no information at all - it was a complete shock to me when the Java 6 beta disappeared without any explanation. As far as I know there STILL has been no comment from Apple about what's going on. Doesn't it seem incredible to you that Apple chooses to simply ignore the thousands of developers clamouring to find out what's happening ? How much trouble would it be to issue a statement saying either "Yes - we've abandoned Java development" or "No - we're still working on it" or even (and this would be lovely) "well, we're having some problems - this is what's troubling us, what do you think we should do about it ?"
    This incident has really shown me the value of open and transparent operating systems - at least on an open source OS everyone knows what's going on and you don't have to deal with sudden unilateral and unexplained decisions like this.
  • Wade Peeler Level 6 Level 6 (10,905 points)
    jportway wrote:
    For one project I'm doing I need 64 bit addressing - Java 5 just can't handle enough memory.


    Java 5 in Leopard is 64-bit. Doesn't this mean it should be able to handle 64 bit addressing?
  • etresoft Level 7 Level 7 (26,590 points)
    jportway wrote:
    The problem for me is the extraordinary disrespect shown to developers in leaving them out in the cold like this with no information at all - it was a complete shock to me when the Java 6 beta disappeared without any explanation. As far as I know there STILL has been no comment from Apple about what's going on.


    If it is that important, then why don't you just pick up the phone and use one of your free technical support incidents to ask about Java 6?????

    If Java 6 is a year old, what was Apple's response when you asked about it at the last WWDC?

    This incident has really shown me the value of open and transparent operating systems - at least on an open source OS everyone knows what's going on and you don't have to deal with sudden unilateral and unexplained decisions like this.


    That hasn't been my experience with open-source. That is why I gave up on Linux years ago. I don't need theologically pure open-source. I need things to work. I also don't need Java. I will use Java if that is the only solution, but I prefer pretty much any (decent, no Tcl/Tk, please) implementation over Java.
  • brwyatt Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Considering that Sun is working on JAVA 7 (they are already providing betas of the JDK to the community to help test it at https://jdk7.dev.java.net/ ), Apple's lack of JAVA 6 is even more depressing. I actually use JAVA 6 (and for some of my code, it is REQUIRED, other wise I would have to use C libraries and destroy platform-independence, however, considering that Apple already did that for me...), and I find JAVA 6 to be much better due to its increased functionality (one feature I really like is the ability to have icons on the Menu Bar in OS X, or the task bar in Linux/Windows) and faster execution. It seems that by the time Sun releases JAVA 7, Apple still won't have JAVA 6, or released any information on it...
  • jportway Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)
    If it is that important, then why don't you just pick up the phone and use one of your free technical support incidents to ask about Java 6?????


    They're not free. And in my experience this kind of thing doesn't qualify as technical support - if there has been a decision not to announce anything about this matter I don't think a tech support engineer is going to break the embargo. Have you actually done any research at all about this ? Try googling [Leopard "java 6"] - you'll find more than 200000 pages and rising - just have a browse through. Look through the Apple Java developer mailing list archives - there are hundreds of questions from developers asking what's going on. No reply from Apple. Do you really no one at Apple has noticed all of this, and when I send an email to a tech support engineer they're going to suddenly wake up ?

    If Java 6 is a year old, what was Apple's response when you asked about it at the last WWDC?


    I wasn't at the last WWDC, but as I remember the word was that Java 6 would be available on Leopard, but they weren't sure whether it would be available on Tiger. I don't think it's breaking any NDAs (it's common knowledge now) to say that until a couple of weeks ago no one had any idea that Java might not be available on Leopard, since there was a beta available and it seemed reasonably on track. Then it disappeared without trace. It's very possible that Java 6 will suddenly appear in a couple of weeks - but if so why on earth is everyone at Apple so silent about it ?

    etresoft wrote:
    I also don't need Java. I will use Java if that is the only solution, but I prefer pretty much any (decent, no Tcl/Tk, please) implementation over Java.


    Then why are you here ? I don't trawl around the net writing comments in forums about stuff that I don't care about or have any knowledge about - I think that's a policy you might be wise to embrace, because otherwise you risk looking foolish.
  • etresoft Level 7 Level 7 (26,590 points)
    jportway wrote:
    They're not free.


    They are if you have suitable ADC membership. If shipping Mac products is this important to you, you should consider it. The mailing lists aren't much better than these discussion forums. There are more knowledgable people, but there are also people who will pester you (via e-mail) far more than I have so far.

    I wasn't at the last WWDC, but as I remember the word was that Java 6 would be available on Leopard, but they weren't sure whether it would be available on Tiger.


    Was the word that it would ship on the 10.5.0 install DVD? Probably not.

    ... there was a beta available ... Then it disappeared without trace.


    Hence the word "beta".

    It's very possible that Java 6 will suddenly appear in a couple of weeks - but if so why on earth is everyone at Apple so silent about it ?


    Perhaps because they can't guarantee it will be available in 14 days precisely, which is about when the messages here and blog postings will start to appear saying "But you promised!"

    Then why are you here ? I don't trawl around the net writing comments in forums about stuff that I don't care about or have any knowledge about - I think that's a policy you might be wise to embrace, because otherwise you risk looking foolish.


    I've been called worse:)

    You are right. I don't really care about Java. I am, however, fascinated by the "Java culture". Java people always seem to be waiting with bated breath for the next, latest release of Java, JBoss, etc. It is always as if they couldn't do anything with the horrible tools they have had to live with for the past 10 years.

    If the Mac doesn't have first-class Java support, why do you care so much? I thought Macs were a "niche" that real enterprise developers didn't care about. The Mac isn't a cutting-edge platform for anything other than Mac stuff like Objective-C, Cocoa, Quicktime, etc. Apple has made it pretty clear that they aren't going to support non-Mac technologies until they are stable. Pretty much everything runs on a Mac, but it is a couple of revisions behind Linux, Windows, or Solaris. I like it that way. If Apple did provide a Java 6 JVM, there would probably be a fair number of incompatibilities (as there always are). Java apps that required Java 6 would be flaky and the developers would loudly and publicly blame Apple for it.

    I really don't care. But I am amused.
  • jportway Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)
    Ok. I don't want to derail this forum with a silly flame war, so I'm not going to get trolled any further after this message.

    Re ADC tech support incidents : NO they are NOT free. You get a small number of tech cupport incidents with your ADC membership and after that you pay for them. I am a paid ADC member and have been since about 1991. Whether or not tech support incidents are free or not is beside the point - this question isn't a tech support issue and it wouldn't be answered if I asked.

    Re: the developer mailing lists : Yes there can be a lot of noise on them, but Apple engineers monitor and contribute to the lists. However, they have all fallen silent on this topic.

    Re the install DVD : If Apple shipped Leopard without the Quicktime or OpenGL APIs on the install DVD, then applications which used those APIs wouldn't run without a separate download. Very few end users, when faced with an application that fails to run the first time will have the technical knowledge or patience to download a software update to fix the problem. Don't you think Quicktime and OpenGL developers would be a bit ****** off ? Why is this a cultural issue with Java developers ?

    However, the question isn't whether Apple ship Java6 on the install DVD. It's whether they're going to ship it at all. Obviously, not having it on the Install DVD is a major issue, but it's too late for that now. If you read my postings I haven't complained about Apple not shipping Java on the install DVD - I've complained about their complete lack of communication about what's going on.

    Re the beta version : I don't think the word "beta" means "we could decide to stop supporting this API at any time without bothering to warn anyone".

    I'd like to reply to your last paragraph, but it just doesn't seem to make any sense. I'll make an attempt though :
    Why do I care ? Because this has quite a big impact on my work.

    I'm absolutely baffled by your "niche" argument, but perhaps you're labouring under the impression that I'm writing exclusively server software or something. Actually almost all the things I'm currently working on use Quicktime, Objective C, Cocoa, Quartz composer etc. as well as Java.

    Again, I have no idea where "Apple makes it clear they are not going to support non-Mac technologies until they are stable" or what relevance this has since Apple have made very clear statements in the past that they were going to make the Mac the "best Java development platform", and since Java 6 is currently the most stable version of Java.

    I'm also confused why, if Apple provided a Java 6 JVM with "a fair number of incompatibilities", it would be unfair to complain to Apple about the bugs, since they are currently in charge of maintaining the JVM. Imagine that one day you eventually install Leopard (which I'm sure you won't be doing for another couple of years because you're not "waiting with baited breath for the next, latest release"). On installing it you find that your Etresoft "small, fast easy to use todo list manager" crashes because of bugs in the operating system and that all of your millions of customers are now emailing you complaining about it. Do you think you might complain and try to get Apple to fix the bugs ?

    Please understand that any question marks you see in this posting are purely rhetorical and I'm unlikely to bother taking the time to respond to any more silly trolling.
  • jportway Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)
    might as well put this here while I'm here : 13949712720901ForOSX
  • etresoft Level 7 Level 7 (26,590 points)
    jportway wrote:
    Ok. I don't want to derail this forum with a silly flame war, so I'm not going to get trolled any further after this message.


    It's not really a flame war. There are two kinds of threads on this discussion forum. People who are asking for help on how to use their Macs and people complaining about Apple, hoping that if they post their message here, "someone" at Apple is going to read it. The first group tend to get their questions answered and they go away happy. The second group tends to stay frustrated.

    I try my best to help both groups. I respond those questions for which I know the answer. I respond to the rants to try to get people to see a bit of logic.

    Here is another attempt at the latter: If Apple dropped any further support of Java, they would really get a lot of bad press, even though Java really isn't a big issue on the Mac. If Apple promised a release date for Java 6, and then couldn't deliver, they would get a bit of bad press, even though everyone knows Java isn't a big issue on the Mac. If Apple stays silent, most Java people won't case because most of them are Sun or Windows folks. The only people who will complain are those who depend on Apple keeping up to date with a large, complex piece non-revenue generating of software that isn't critical for the Mac.

    Anyone in that last group is going to have to continue to target Java 1.5 or work on Solaris, Windows, or Linux. (Using the Mac is a great way to do either of those, by the way.) Apple will probably release Java 6 when they get done with it, or they won't. If you only do Java, perhaps you should exploit that platform independence everyone talks about. If you only do Mac, perhaps you should consider Objective-C. It is quite nice. If you only want to do Java 6, only on the Mac, and you want to do it right now, you are just SOL.

    Java 6 is currently the most stable version of Java.


    I know very little about Java, but I'm confident that statement is patently false.

    I'm also confused why, if Apple provided a Java 6 JVM with "a fair number of incompatibilities", it would be unfair to complain to Apple about the bugs, since they are currently in charge of maintaining the JVM.


    Java is Sun's baby. Apple doesn't make any money of off it. All people seem to do is complain about it. Any support Apple gives to Java is out of the goodness of their heart.

    Imagine that one day you eventually install Leopard (which I'm sure you won't be doing for another couple of years because you're not "waiting with baited breath for the next, latest release").


    I'm actually running it now and it runs very nicely. I shrewdly realized that I could partition my hard drive and run Leopard for new work while keeping Tiger for backwards compatibility testing. After all, Tiger still runs fine. I think 10.5 may be the best OS I have ever used, but, I have to admit, I don't need to use. I probably won't be targeting Objective-C 2.0 either. I don't need garbage collection.

    On installing it you find that your Etresoft "small, fast easy to use todo list manager" crashes because of bugs in the operating system and that all of your millions of customers are now emailing you complaining about it. Do you think you might complain and try to get Apple to fix the bugs ?


    Actually, EtreTask runs fine on 10.5. Luckily, I didn't base it on beta software that could get pulled out from underneath it. The amazing this is that all my software runs on 10.5. I had one really old program that, when I compiled the Universal Binary version for Tiger, had well over 10,000 deprecation warnings. I think the compiler just stopped counting. That program runs fine on 10.5. I was shocked.

    Please understand that any question marks you see in this posting are purely rhetorical and I'm unlikely to bother taking the time to respond to any more silly trolling.


    So you've had the last word and now you'll take your ball and go home?

    Please understand that I'm not trying to engage you in a flame war. I'm not trying to bash Java either. Software is released only when it is released. They even have a word for those "promises" - vapor-ware. Apple doesn't want to be known for that. I am positive that they would release Java 6 is they were finished with it. I am pretty sure that they are working on it and will release it "real soon now". I bet the probably pulled that beta because people were shipping software based on it. That was a wise move on Apple's part. Java just isn't Apple's top priority. If Apple technologies are your top priority, and Java 5 is inadequate, you'll have to use Objective-C.
  • Uriah Heapsort Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Before I say anything, I'm a student may just sound like one...
    Leopard is supposed to be fully capable of running POSIX standard code now that it has a Unix certification. Anyone know what this could mean for the future of a JVM? Are there too many 'OS specifics' involved in developing an POSIX JVM - or could there actually be some generalized Unix open-source code would compile fine on a Mac? (Even if not at the normal prettiness level). Supposedly, java 7 (open-source) when finalized should be rid of any of the several proprietary issues it's having now. Hopefully the Java issues get sorted soon - not that my particular issues with it are critical - I've just always thought of OS X as the development platform and feel disappointed that it's the only OS out there that can't run the latest versions of Java.
  • daneng Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    This fiasco shows that Apple does not consider developers and businesses to be a target audience. They could have opened Java development to third parties if they had been serious about it.
  • daneng Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    etresoft wrote:
    Finally, given that we are all discussing this matter on Apple's discussion boards and the thread isn't locked or deleted, this is all public knowledge.


    Should we be thankful for that???
  • CH-CompSci Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Thanks a bundle for the package!