Apple Event: May 7th at 7 am PT

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Level 1

0 points

Come on folks we are Omega testers here

I know the Apple community has grown a lot lately so it bears repeating that Apple releases their OS's intending their users to be the final line of testers or as I call us "OMEGA" testers.

It really is a good philosophy because you simply can never get everything out in limited Beta. To me this is one of the joys of being an Apple user. We are not treated like children who need a completely carefree experience. Ultimately the OS's iron out these wrinkles and become the envy of Redmond that they always become. By doing things like this we as Mac users get to have OS's that push the bounds of technology and the software experience.

If you want hand holding you can go to Microsoft and ..ooohhhhh.....that's not working out so well for them is it?

You know compared to the nightmare I experience on my Windows machine when I upgraded to Vista this is a walk in the park with a beautiful woman.

Are there problems? Yep. Would I put it on my production machine? Nope. Not until I tested it on another machine with all my driver/software configurations. Would I recommend to a user with low tolerance that they use leopard right now? Nope, not for several weeks or even after the holidays or days leading up to Macworld.

Anyway, my two bits.

Mac Pro, Mac Book Pro, iMac, Mac OS X (10.5), Dual Monitors on Mac Pro

Posted on Oct 29, 2007 11:10 AM

31 replies

Oct 29, 2007 3:49 PM in response to stucarius2

Very well said.

Oct 29, 2007 5:10 PM in response to stucarius2

Your post is a welcome one indeed.

Posts like this one [here|http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=5678495#5678495] have always been posted on here with every single upgrade and ironically, I'm not sure it's the Windoze users who complain the most. In fact, I get the feeling some Mac users may have become complacent and seem not to understand the huge technological leaps they are so lucky to be experiencing and learning from.

Looking at what Microsoft does with Vista pricing, hand holding and then chopping it off seem to be more likely...and perhaps an arm and a leg as well. 😉

Oct 29, 2007 5:22 PM in response to backbaydk

backbaydk wrote:
I appreciate your positivity BUT some of the issues that users are dealing with on Leopard are exposing holes in Apple's QA process that you can drive a semi truck through despite the long wait (years!) for an updated OS...

1. Did any existing OS X users test Stacks? Either nobody did or Apple clearly chose not to listen to anyone because it's a junk feature in its current state.
2. Did apple test upgrade installations on a wde enough variety of platforms that were being used in real world conditions? I have to believe they did not because so many users are getting blue screens after installation.
3. Did anyone who uses a mac as a home theater get to test Front Row before it went out the door? There are a ton of graphics glitches (Red iTunes album art anyone?) and usability problems and now it being provided with 100% more ugly than the previous version.
4. Apple knew many people would hate the menu bar transparency - this is why they toned it down in the last few candidate releases. But how hard would it be to simply allow an option to turn it off or adjust it?
5. People have problems with login passwords longer than 8 characters. What?! Apple couldn't test some long passwords ahead of relase?
6. Icons - the new leopard icons are boring and not of enough contrast to differentiate one from another. I have to believe Apple did not listen to beta testers on this one.

There are other issues as indicated in these forums and I think it's not appropriate to dismiss these concerns away by attributing them to whiny customers.

Apple needs to form a customer council. Take some prominent members of the Mac community (how about the top 10 users on this forum?) and invite them to review and provide feedback to Apple. Someone needs to make sure Apple is not overlooking or misjudging the real world needs of its bread & butter - end users.

Message was edited by: backbaydk

Message was edited by: backbaydk

Customer Council? Top ten forum members' and of course your subjective experiences and theirs should (apparently) dictate how an OS should look and behave? I think not. Apple can't please them all, and not all are whiners, but some concepts such as you have elucidated are not the way companies can be run. A Board of Directors generally plays many of the roles you have mentioned.

Oct 29, 2007 5:31 PM in response to GiacomoDiPantera

GiacomoDiPantera wrote:
Customer Council? Top ten forum members' and of course your subjective experiences and theirs should (apparently) dictate how an OS should look and behave? I think not. Apple can't please them all, and not all are whiners, but some concepts such as you have elucidated are not the way companies can be run. A Board of Directors generally plays many of the roles you have mentioned.

Hogwash. Many Fortune 100 companies have customer councils and they are used to help determine the paths of many products and services. Ever heard of a focus group?

Also I guarantee that the Board of Directors at 99.999% of global companies have ZERO input on actual look/feel of any product. You should learn a bit more about how companies are actually run. Here's a link regarding Boards of Directors to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoardofDirectors

I don't care that you disagree with me but your tone made me want to rip your response to shreds.

Oct 29, 2007 6:10 PM in response to backbaydk

backbaydk wrote:

GiacomoDiPantera wrote:
Customer Council? Top ten forum members' and of course your subjective experiences and theirs should (apparently) dictate how an OS should look and behave? I think not. Apple can't please them all, and not all are whiners, but some concepts such as you have elucidated are not the way companies can be run. A Board of Directors generally plays many of the roles you have mentioned.

Hogwash. Many Fortune 100 companies have customer councils and they are used to help determine the paths of many products and services. Ever heard of a focus group?

Also I guarantee that the Board of Directors at 99.999% of global companies have ZERO input on actual look/feel of any product. You should learn a bit more about how companies are actually run. Here's a link regarding Boards of Directors to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoardofDirectors

I don't care that you disagree with me but your tone made me want to rip your response to shreds.

I said some, not all, and as far as companies listening to their customers:

[Open Letter|http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter>
[Open Letter|http://www.apple.com/hotnews/agreenerapple>
[Open Letter|http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic>

Apple has a reputation as a company that already commands a very loyal and satisfied installed base...fanatical many call it. I'm not sure focus groups are needed and have you ever heard a keynote of Job's where he refers to "customers' requests" time and time again? I have. Last time I looked, there wasn't any place or means to give feedback to Microsoft about the Office suite or other products even though it may exist somewhere, unlike Apple's all over the place on here. I've used feedback on this site many times. 20 million+ customers potentially giving feedback beats any focus group. Sounds rather elitist to me.

I'm not feeling shredded. 🙂

an0nymus

Level 1

0 points

Oct 29, 2007 6:11 PM in response to stucarius2

I may, stress may be inclined to give in on many of the points I read in this discussion. If not for the fact that one can not purchase a Macintosh without Leopard as of last Saturday. Sure, we choose to upgrade, but new users don't get that choice.

Do you feel that Leopard is ready to be forced on people? If you can honestly answer yes, than I'll give your arguments another hearing - otherwise think twice about whether Leopard is/was ready for prime time. My feelings so far - it isn't.

I hope everyone made a full system backup before upgrading to Leopard. I did. Now I need to decide whether I'll revert back until I read that most of these "bugs" are fixed. In the meantime do we recommend to friends / customers that they buy a new Macintosh with no other choice than run Leopard (or install Tiger, thus violating a license agreement, which I can/will not advise.)

Oct 29, 2007 6:21 PM in response to an0nymus

Leopard, in theory, pre-installed, is a different animal than an upgrade...pardon the pun. 😉

BKRonline

Level 1

115 points

Oct 29, 2007 6:36 PM in response to backbaydk

If you can't take a joke... don't bother reading this post.

/start rant

I'd like to respond to many of these types of posts... but I'll settle for this one.

backbaydk wrote:
I appreciate your positivity BUT some of the issues that users are dealing with on Leopard are exposing holes in Apple's QA process that you can drive a semi truck through despite the long wait (years!) for an updated OS...

eh, what do you want... a shiny new OS every month? (whine!)

1. Did any existing OS X users test Stacks? Either nobody did or Apple clearly chose not to listen to anyone because it's a junk feature in its current state.

hm... what? (whine!)

2. Did apple test upgrade installations on a wde enough variety of platforms that were being used in real world conditions? I have to believe they did not because so many users are getting blue screens after installation.

as opposed to Apples 'fake world conditions'? ... right... blue screens what? (whine!)

3. Did anyone who uses a mac as a home theater get to test Front Row before it went out the door? There are a ton of graphics glitches (Red iTunes album art anyone?) and usability problems and now it being provided with 100% more ugly than the previous version.

wasn't Front Row a separate software package before, now it's included? hm... red art? again... (whine!)

4. Apple knew many people would hate the menu bar transparency - this is why they toned it down in the last few candidate releases. But how hard would it be to simply allow an option to turn it off or adjust it?

one might say you worry too much... sheesh... (whine!)

5. People have problems with login passwords longer than 8 characters. What?! Apple couldn't test some long passwords ahead of relase?

i'm sure they completely ignored anything to do with passwords... /rollseyes ... (whine!)

6. Icons - the new leopard icons are boring and not of enough contrast to differentiate one from another. I have to believe Apple did not listen to beta testers on this one.

eh? you might have too much time on your hands friend... (whine!)

There are other issues as indicated in these forums and I think it's not appropriate to dismiss these concerns away by attributing them to whiny customers.

got a mirror? oh wait... (whine!)

Apple needs to form a customer council. Take some prominent members of the Mac community (how about the top 10 users on this forum?) and invite them to review and provide feedback to Apple. Someone needs to make sure Apple is not overlooking or misjudging the real world needs of its bread & butter - end users.

wouldn't you like to be the dark lord of the apple customer council? muhhahaaaaaaaa evil!

(whine!)

you sound like a teenager spouting off all sorts of issues you haven't personally experienced. please, save the drama for your the playground. this OS is what... HOURS old? OH NO THE DRAMAS!

simply put, i can still do absolutely everything i could do and more thanks to Leopard. and believe me... i do quite a bit 🙂

one more (whine!) for the fun of it :P

/end rant

Oct 29, 2007 6:37 PM in response to GiacomoDiPantera

"Leopard, in theory, pre-installed, is a different animal than an upgrade"

I couldn't agree more. There is a major major difference between having Leopard pre-installed on factory fresh hardware as compared to upgrading an older machine with a thousand user settings and hundreds of UI tweaks in place.

I upgraded to 10.5 on my existing Macbook, and cannot replicate any of the Leopard problems I have read about thus far. If that's any indication, then it is apparent to me that whatever problems are being referred to here, will simply not exist when using 10.5 installed on factory-fresh unused hardware.

Maybe the X-11 + Spaces mousejump bug I could replicate if I tried; but that's relatively obscure. I really do not expect all these sorts of issues on a pre-installed system - think about it, the preinstalls are what gets the heaviest debugging and troubleshooting during the development process, no?

That bit about people being forced to use Leopard because it comes pre-loaded just doesn't wash. And where-from comes this bizarre notion that a downgrade breaks Apple's EULA??

Oct 29, 2007 6:51 PM in response to BKRonline

So your strategy is to respond in such detail that the person who disagrees with you has to slog through your response for an hour? No way I'm even going to bother.

The last 2 responses are exactly why everyone chuckles a bit whenever mac bigots proclaim their undying love for a piece of software or hardware.

Some people seem to think that anything Apple should be handled like the Chinese Government. All negative information and dissenting opinions must be stifled at all costs.

Apple makes mistakes. All companies do. My criticism was ultimately constructive - offering ideas about what could be done to make a good product great.

Neither of you clowns has offered any constructive feedback - you've only proven that you're a couple of sheep.

3X Champ

Level 1

122 points

Oct 29, 2007 6:55 PM in response to stucarius2

Very profound. However, I must have received my copy from the cleaners because there doesn't seem to be any wrinkles to iron out with my install. Now that was cheesy, huh? Sorry folks, I am usually better than that.

Oct 29, 2007 7:03 PM in response to 3X Champ

yes, my MacBook upgrade to 10.5 took place without a single hitch. I must say, it went flawlessly. But then, I tend to have more problems with minor decimal updates than major decimal upgrades for some reason.

Bottom line is, there has been zero problems with 10.5 going onto my MacBook. Purely zero. not even a blip on the radar. nothing. Stuck the disk in, clicked upgrade, went to grab lunch to go, came back and started using 10.5 while munching on a burger.

Flawless I say!

Tamara

Level 6

13,738 points

Oct 29, 2007 7:05 PM in response to backbaydk

backbaydk wrote:

GiacomoDiPantera wrote:

Hogwash. Many Fortune 100 companies have customer councils and they are used to help determine the paths of many products and services. Ever heard of a focus group?

A focus group is a group of people who are "hired" for a brief trial and paid a token sum of money to give an opinion on some facet of product development. They don't determine anything.

Oct 31, 2007 5:07 AM in response to psalmsmith

In years past, a Mac sold with one version of the OS is not able to use a previous version of the OS.

I'm obviously not certain that will be the case with Macs that come with Leopard pre-installed, but it's a good bet it will be that way.

Check out this Apple Knowledge Base article:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25497

Nov 1, 2007 12:19 AM in response to stucarius2

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and is one of the reasons for Mac user bias among people who consider themselves above average in intelligence.

Come on folks we are Omega testers here