Writing zeros to erase drive

I understand that using this erase option in Disk Utility will map out bad sectors of a hard drive.

My question is: will a future partitioning or reformat command "remember" those bad sectors? E.g. when selecting the Partition tab in Disk Utility, there is NO option to write zeros. Or then, if I format only one of those partitions later, will the bad sectors be remembered?

Thanks for any advice.

Posted on Oct 3, 2005 11:04 AM

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11 replies

Oct 5, 2005 12:27 PM in response to ds store

Drive manufacturers do map out bad blocks before the drives are released from manufacturing. The bad block list created during this process is not the same as the disks Grown Defect list (G-List). The original bad block list is permanent and cannot be altered. The G-List can be changed by various utilities designed to write out new G-Lists to the drive.

When you format a hard drive, the permanent bad block list, and the G-List are used during the initialization process (actually some formatting tools give you control over using the G-List and or permanent bad block list or not, however for this discussion, the G-List is always used).

Using Apples Disk Utility, the only way to write out a new G-list is to use the Zero data option during formatting.

So if you do a default format, you will erase and format the drive using the permanent bad block list, and any existing G-List. If you use the Zero the data option, the format process does a media check by doing a write read of zero's to the media. When the media check is done, a new G-List is written out with any defects noted. The drive is then formated with the perement bad block list and the G-list.

Which brings us to an interesting question...

Since a brand new hard drive has already had the media checked and the permanent bad block list created.

The drive hasn't been used, except for testing at the manufacturer.

What value is there in zeroing data on a brand new hard drive?

Bad blocks will occur over time as the drive is used, do to media failure, but the drive hasn't been used, so there should be no new media failures. In other words, the permanent bad block list, and the G-List will be the same if you use the Zero data option on a drives initial formating.

Tom N.

Oct 4, 2005 7:06 AM in response to Dragon Reborn

mapping out bad sectors writes the sector location to the Grown Defects* list as I understand it. This list is only changed again by another mapping of the bad sectors. So a zero format will map the drive while a quick format to partition a drive will not. A quick format will use the existing grown defects list.

* I 'think' this is what they call it.....

Oct 5, 2005 6:05 AM in response to Damien

Oh that's good to know,

Now the million dollar question is why doesn't drive manufacturers or at least Apple map off the bad sectors before loading the OS onto the drive?

If it takes too long then just having a small file on a brand new Mac's drive that requests the installation disk that will do a zero and install would do wonders in improving the reliability factor.

Having Disk Utility check a brand new drive before formating to see and give the user the option to improve their reliability.

It's such a pain to do it after the drive is filled up, oh well. 😟

Oct 5, 2005 2:43 PM in response to Tom Nelson1

Ahh, great post there Tom,

Tom wrote "The drive hasn't been used, except for testing at the manufacturer. "
"What value is there in zeroing data on a brand new hard drive? "
"Bad blocks will occur over time as the drive is used, do to media failure, but the drive hasn't been used, so there should be no new media failures. In other words, the permanent bad block list, and the G-List will be the same if you use the Zero data option on a drives initial formating."


Yea there shouldn't be any "new media failures" on a brand new drive, perhaps some drive makers have been cutting corners or something.

I never had three Tiger installs each from two different disks on three new drives fail before, then the problems magically disappears after I zeroed the drives. (Western Digitals and one Maxor)

Is there a standard bad sector check done by a XP installation that drive makers were relying upon and Apple hasn't incorporated into their install procedure?

Oct 5, 2005 4:00 PM in response to ds store

Hmmm if I remember correctly Windows NT and 2000 did a format operation that included writing out a G-List when the OS was installed, However that is only when a full install was done, remember most OS installs by computer manufacturers are done from drive images, so how the drives were formatted initially is unknown (by us anyway). As for Win 9x or XP OS's, I don't know what the full install does in the way of formating.

Besides, the permanent bad block list still needs to be created, and the only way to do that is by the manufacturer performing media testing and generating the bad block list.

In addition, if your drive uses S.M.A.R.T to analyze and report drive errors, it needs to know the permanent bad blocks, as well as the G-List to evaluate errors, since one of the things S.M.A.R.T looks at is media errors and growth of faulty sectors.

While I think drive manufacturers are doing everything they can to reduce production costs, I can't see them delivering untested media to end users of any type.

Tom N.

Oct 6, 2005 4:03 AM in response to Dragon Reborn

Just to make sure we're not confusing anything here:

* The P-List and G-List are kept internally inside the drive firmware. The OS and high-level software do not have direct control of the P-List and G-List on ATA drives (apart from non-standard, manufacturer specific commands that some utilities know of). Bad sectors stored in these lists are not visible to the OS, unless all spare sectors are used up, or the data stored in the bad sector could not be recovered.

* The OS itself keeps a list of bad sectors in the file system. This list is different from the lower-level G-List in that it only contains defects that were not (yet) remapped by the drive firmware.

See this article:
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/geom/formatDefect.html

So the answer to the OP's question would be: if you create a new partition on the drive (abandoning the old file system), the type of bad sectors that Disk Utility itself maps out will NOT be remembered. The defect list stored internally in the drive firmware will, of course, be remembered.

Oct 6, 2005 4:51 AM in response to Tom Nelson1

Tom wrote: Hmm if I remember correctly Windows NT and 2000 did a format operation that included writing out a G-List when the OS was installed.

Yea I remember something like that too, it took a long time and perhaps customers were annoyed about it so the responsibility was shifted to the drive manufacturers.

While I think drive manufacturers are doing everything they can to reduce production costs, I can't see them delivering untested media to end users of any type.

Your statement got me thinking, the times I did receive those drives was during a period of high demand, the Maxor for the new PowerMac's (the big Mac OS X "freezing issues") and the WD Raptors during their peak demand from both Mac and PC users.

Well enough about my experience, why do video professionals swear by zero-ing each new drive? Is it because they write such a large amount of data at time that the chance of hitting a bad sector increase? Wouldn't this be a similar situation for a fresh Mac OS X install or a clone of a drive?

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Writing zeros to erase drive

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