Color profile folders

I was using PSE3 and would switch color space between sRGB and Adobe 98 depending if I was printing or going to the web. Now I install Nikon Capture that has more raw file control and several profiles and uses the default as assigned by Colorsync. Color syny Adobe 98. A search of files show that PSE has its own profile folder not the one used by Color Sync. Can I just copy the Adobe 98 icc file to the Colorsynce profile folder.

Also I have a profile list from when I calibrated my monitor. Should I use that or Adobe.

Thanks

Posted on Sep 23, 2005 8:10 PM

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44 replies

Sep 24, 2005 9:37 AM in response to Jaba

Can I just copy the Adobe 98 icc file to the ColorSync profile folder.


Yes.

Also I have a profile list from when I calibrated my monitor. Should I use that or Adobe.


That's up to you. Most people use a fixed color space, such as Adobe '98, which many vendors are trying to make the default RGB color space rather than sRGB. I prefer to use my monitor profile as my RGB space in Photoshop. I should note that I used a professional hardware/software package to create my monitor profile, not just the sliders in the Displays field of the System Profiler, so that method may not work as well for you.

Sep 24, 2005 10:06 AM in response to Kurt Lang

Thanks

So, when people say they are using a calibrated monitor does that mean they are using a calibrated profile. I have had people look at my web images and say the color is off and that they are using a calibrated monitor.

Does embedding a profile change the underlying data or just attach the profile for correct color rending. I guess I need a class on color mgt 😟

Sep 24, 2005 10:31 AM in response to Jaba

So, when people say they are using a calibrated monitor does that mean they are using a calibrated profile.


Depends on their concept of "calibrated". If all they've used to calibrate their monitors is the built in functions where you just eyeball the color, then it's not calibrated. Not properly anyway.

When it comes to calibrating your monitor, there simply is no replacement for a hardware/software solution such as Monaco System's Optix XR monitor calibrator. You'll have to scroll down the page I linked to to see it. If you do a lot of prints, $300 is a cheap investment for color matching.

This is because no matter how much you move the sliders or other controls around, your Mac still does not know what the phosphors of your monitor actually look like. All you're doing in the Monitors control panel is shifting the preset LAB values of a basic profile. This produces a profile that is still not based on your monitor's actual display. What a good colorimeter and its software will do, such as the Monaco Optix XR, is read the real LAB values the RGB phosphors of your monitor is capable of displaying and then create a profile based on those values.

As far as settings, that depends on what you can live with. The default gamma for the Mac is normally 1.8. This gamma most closely simulates the reflective density of paper. Most Windows computers use a default gamma of 2.2. This a much richer and darker gamma, but it's also pretty much impossible to reproduce on paper; photographic, inkjet or otherwise.

For white point, the default is 6500K, which is daylight white. Again though, this is a very bright bluish white that cannot be reproduced on paper. A white point of 5000K is much closer to what you can print in regards to light, vibrant colors. The higher (and bluer), the white point, the brighter and richer light colors become on screen.

So your choices are:

1) Use a 6500K white point along with a 2.2 gamma for images on screen that really pop, but will look flat and with less color saturation on your prints in comparison.

2) Use a 5000K white point along with a 1.8 gamma that will cause your monitor to look somewhat flatter and a bit less colorful, but will match your prints much closer as your monitor is set up to more closely simulate a print.

Not that a 5000K white point/1.8 gamma doesn't work well for RGB. I use it for for both that and CMYK with equally excellent results. Actually, I use D50 for the white point. Both it and 5000K are based on a 5000K spectrum of light, but the method used to produce that color are slightly different, resulting in an equally slightly different gray balance.

About that 5000K white point. Compared to a default monitor setup, 5000K looks yellow in comparison though it's actually just neutral. It may take you a little while to get used to after looking at a 6500K screen for years. If using the free method produces an orange colored white when you set it to 5000K, you're actually looking at a white point much lower than 5000K. That's because the free method has no idea where you have the white point on your monitor set to. If it's already set to a low Kelvin point, then dropping the slider to 5000K may give you something more like 4000K, which is orange. If it still looks too blue, then your monitor is probably set to 9500K and moving the slider to 5000K is leaving you somewhere around 6500K.

In other words, the free method is practically useless. Not really trying that hard to push you into purchasing a monitor calibrator, just presenting the facts.

I have had people look at my web images and say the color is off and that they are using a calibrated monitor.


That, again, depends on if their monitors are truly calibrated accurately. Otherwise, their color is no better or more accurate than yours.

(cont.)

Sep 24, 2005 10:32 AM in response to Kurt Lang

(cont.)

Does embedding a profile change the underlying data or just attach the profile for correct color rending.


It only defines how color for that image was rendered. So when someone opens your files on their computer, the color management software knows how to make the image look on their system as it did on yours by knowing the difference between your profile and theirs. This ties also into how your images are displayed on the web. Most browsers now understand color management. So they can now display color from system to system the way it was seen be the person who created the image, no matter what the original white point and gamma was. But you still have to have a properly gray balanced monitor to start with in order for it to work.

I guess I need a class on color mgt 😟


Real World Color Management is about the best book out there on the subject. Not a "For Dummies" book simple, but thorough without being quantum physics difficult to read or understand.

Sep 24, 2005 11:09 AM in response to Jaba

I send out my RGB images with my profile attached, which is my monitor profile; doing double duty as my RGB color space in Photoshop. That's the most proper one for me as it is how my monitor looks and is based on the range of color it's capable of displaying.

You can send out in Adobe '98 if you like. I'd work in the color space you're in, and then save a copy by first choosing Convert to Profile in PSE and choosing Adobe '98. Make sure Black Point Compensation is on. Relative Colorimetric usually gives the best color transfer results. Then save the converted image.

Oct 6, 2005 7:25 AM in response to Patrick_C

That's what I get for believing a short article I read at MacWorld.com. They simply said that the Mac browsers understand ColorSync for display of color. No mention that it only included a couple of browsers. Oh well.

I like the link to the ICC page to test a browser's ability to display color. Not much of a surprise that you need ICC version 4 for full compatibility. I've tried making my profiles for version 4, but there's still too many apps that don't support them. Quark for one. Even the latest version of 6.5 can't read version 4 ICC profiles.

Oct 6, 2005 11:51 AM in response to Kurt Lang

Kurt -

" I send out my RGB images with my profile attached, which is my monitor profile; doing double duty as my RGB color space in Photoshop."

This caught my eye earlier but I couldn't recall the info regarding the use monitor space as your working space. I don't have Fraser's Color Management book in front of me but I decided to flip through "Photoshop CS" by Blatner & Fraser.

On p. 173 they mention the only reason to choose your monitor space as your working space is if you do web graphics only and need the color in PS to match the color in your non-color managed applications (i.e. Dreamweaver).

They also mention that "it (monitor space) will also ensure that RGB looks different on your machine than it does on everyone else's. (That's why Photoshop introduced the idea of an RGB working space in the first place.)"

Before referring back to the book, if you had asked me if I used my monitor space as my working space AND tagged the the files, would images look correct on other machines (in ICC aware applications), I would have said yes. I'm still not 100% clear on this but I believe it has to do with the fact that Fraser & Blatner call RGB working spaces "device-independent" whereas your monitor space is unique and not device-independent (p. 168 of "Photoshop CS")

Previously, I had only heard CIE Lab referred to as device-independent.

later,

Patrick

Oct 6, 2005 12:51 PM in response to Patrick_C

I'm still not 100% clear on this but I believe it has to do with the fact that Fraser & Blatner call RGB working spaces "device-independent" whereas your monitor space is unique and not device-independent (p. 168 of "Photoshop CS")


I can't say I agree with that. If you were to pick Wide Gamut RGB, Adobe RGB (1998), ColorMatch RGB, Apple RGB or any other predefined color space, you wouldn't be in any better position. All are based on someone else's perception of an optimal color gamut. More than that, they all define a theoretical color space that cannot be displayed on pretty much any monitor. Except for some, like sRGB, which was intentionally designed as a small color gamut that will fit within the display abilities of most monitors. Using your monitor profile as your working RGB space insures that you are not clipping off colors that are beyond the ability of your monitor to accurately display, but still giving you the maximum range it is capable of.

Also, if you're using (example) ColorMatch RGB and the person you send them to is using Adobe RGB, a conversion has to be made anyway. So what's the difference if it's converting between two predefined sources or a custom one? As long as you have a defined white point and gamma in your monitor profile, it should convert just as well as any other RGB profile.

I've been using this method for about 3 years now and have had far more success matching the output on my print devices to my monitor using my monitor profile for my RGB space than I ever did using a canned profile.

They also mention that "it (monitor space) will also ensure that RGB looks different on your machine than it does on everyone else's. (That's why Photoshop introduced the idea of an RGB working space in the first place.)"


And that can just as easily be said for any predefined RGB profile. I don't understand why they think a monitor profile is any different. Even if you and the people you share your images with are using the exact same RGB profile, that doesn't guarantee that your color will match either. If your monitor is set to a D50 white point and 1.8 gamma, and theirs is set to a 6500K white point and 2.2 gamma, your images will look very different on their monitor. When they open your images, Photoshop will say "they match", and do nothing to convert it. But without taking the color temperature and gamma of the target monitor into consideration, it still won't look the same.

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Color profile folders

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