10.5.2 NO WIRELESS!

w t f just got censored when written without a space, how bizare! i would have thought that was the point in writing it like that.
Oh well...

Perhaps it's time for some "proactivity"? If they are aware of this problem, they've not acknowledged it anywhere that I am aware of. And if in fact they do not bother to monitor these forums, maybe it's just time to make them aware? Many of us are out of warranty or do not have the time to spend at The Genius Bar (which I can't remember seeing anyone getting it fixed there anyway).

I recommend that everyone take the time to fill out a form here,

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Other than the therapeutic value of "misery loves company", we don't seem to be of much help to each other here.

I filled one out last night.

I don't expect to hear anything back. No doubt they'll push out a fix when they're good and ready and in typical Apple fashion will say SFA on the subject in the mean time.

Message was edited by: Paztot

Todd Templeton wrote:
And like I've said before, why Apple chose to "reinvent the wheel" in an area where compatibility and dependability are vastly more important than whiz-bang new technology, is completely beyond my comprehension.

Just assuming your logic isn't flawed (and it is; the number of people having no issues with Leopard and AirPort vastly outnumbers the number of people who are having issues) at least when it comes to 802.11n the issue could be the new version of the 802.11n draft spec released last year.

Recall that 802.11n is still a draft spec, and thus is subject to change.

Paztot wrote:
I'm sure Apple are very aware of the problem. The lack of any official help is very disappointing.

Once again, this is a user to user forum.

Apple does not read these forums in any official capacity except to enforce the Terms of Use.

Apple engineering investigates bugs as created via the Apple Bug Reporter or via AppleCare reports.

Apple in general does not comment upon bugs until a fix is available.

So according to you the move from 10.4.11 to 10.5.0 implemented a newer version of the draft specifications of wireless 'n' which meant that wireless connections to Apple routers are now more flakey?

So they would update the specifications of the wireless client firmware but leave the old spec firmware on their routers, then spend four months scratching their heads when it doesn't work?

Also how do you know what percentage of people are suffering from this? The number of people who can be bothered to complain about something is proportional to the perceived outcomes of complaining, and to the level of indignation.

There is a formula used to measure how offended people are by TV programs and whether or not a program should be taken off the air. It states that if something like 20 people phone up and complain then 6000 people were heavily offended, but the other 5980 just flicked channels and complained about it to friends the next day rather than doing something.

Based on that, you can add up all the people posting about this on this forum and others and multiply that several times (not as much as in the example given above granted), and then wider the net still further if you include people who have less severe problems.

I'd say that's quite a few people.

While some reported issues with 10.5.0, many more seemed to have issues, particularly with 802.11n routers, starting with 10.5.2 (see the title of this thread), which coincides with the release of the latest draft of the 802.11n spec; I've no idea if Apple actually implemented it in 10.5.2 or not.

Most of those using Macs with Apple routers are having no issues; some are, but most of those having issues are using third party routers of various flavors, D-Link apparently being one of the more troublesome.

Since the drafts are supposed to largely be backwards-compatible, there's not necessarily a need to update the router firmware for Apple routers, but third party manufacturers may well have made some assumptions that were proved wrong in the newer draft.

I'm in a position to deal with a fairly large number of Mac users every day, and very few of them are reporting AirPort issues (and those that have have generally been able to fix their problem by downloading a router patch.)

That in no way is meant to belittle the issues of those here having problems; I will restate yet again I experienced a similar issue myself with my MacBook Pro under Tiger and I know first hand how incredibly frustrating these issues can be.

All I can say is that Apple engineering is undoubtedly researching the issue and when they have a fix (and the fix is tested) you'll have it, and if it's determined to be an issue with third party routers, they're working with those third party manufacturers to get them to fix it. For those having issues with Apple routers, I don't have an explanation.

Bottom line, if going back to 10.5.1 or Tiger works as a workaround for you or anyone else here, then perhaps you should do that until you read the issue has been solved.

I don't think it's the routers - I'm using an all-Apple setup at home: Intel iMac that's wired to the network, and a Macbook Pro that's operating wirelessly. I have zero issues with the iMac, but for the past few weeks, my Macbook will just drop all wireless capability. Not only will it no longer see my network at home, it won't see any of the other networks available in my apartment building. (A quick check in my iMac's wireless dropdown is showing 15 including my own, many of them Linksys.)

This is maddening to say the least. I didn't drop $3,000 on a laptop so I can have it chained to a desk.

While I have been using Apple products since about 1993 and I would probably be considered a "AppleHead" I don't understand these Apple apologists trying to come up with all sorts of crazy, pie in the sky explanations for what is a pretty serious problem.

The cry "3rd party issues" comes up often. Crap, utter crap! It has nothing to do with 3rd party routers. I have a 100% Apple network setup and ever since the minute I "upgraded' to 10.5.2 my airport is messed up. (Of course if you are a real Apple diehard you could try and blame my ZyXEL DSL modem I suppose)

If all of these people have cured their Airport woes with a router patch as you say, where is Apple's router patch? Version 6.3 is the latest on the Apple website and that is what is on my airport express.

Love your Apple, get Apple tatoo's, put the little Apple sticker on your car's rear window but don't bury your head in the sand when Apple screws up and start blaming everyone but Apple.

One of the Apple groups I browse is already talking about a class action lawsuit if this problem isn't fixed pronto and I would gladly sign up for that. This is ridiculous, Apple has been at the forefront of pushing the "wireless lifestyle" their new "MacBook Air positively relies on wifi, and yet a large chunk of users now either cannot connect wirelessly or if they can have greatly reduced range and/or frequent dropouts.

Going back to 10.5.1 did not work for me so I even went to the extreme of wiping my hard drive and installing the disk that came with my MacBook (10.4) airport was still messed up!!! which is why I suspect 10.5.2 has changed the firmware on my airport card, otherwise 10.4 would have put things normal. Meanwhile my wife's iBook with 10.4 works perfectly with the same airport express that my MacBook has all the problems with.

Message was edited by: markbau

I have two G4 Powerbook 15" Macs with 10.4.x.

The first computer I did an upgrade to the new 10.5 and patched to 10.5.2.

The second Powerbook was a complete wipe and installed to 10.5.2.

Both units were then attached to a linksys WRT54G running firmware Version: v1.02.2 and the best I could get was two bars. Even 10 feet from the router, I got two bars. Now before the update or install both machines got full four bars. I also was able to move around the outside of the house and still get a connection, but now I can't.l I have spent four days searching the internet and one full day just looking through the 12,000+ posts about this subject here and still no answers.

What ever you say, having over 12,000 post expressing concerns over this issue is a big thing regardless of Apple monitors the forums. SOMEONE FROM APPLE DOES SCAN THESE FORUMS.

The word VASTLY was used to describe the importance of dependability and compatibility over new technology when it comes something as crucial to as many people as wireless connectivity. Would you not agree that IF this problem was caused by tinkering with a future "beta" wireless standard, it was perhaps not the wisest move on Apple's part? I think most people here would be just thrilled to have a good "old fashioned" dependable 802.11g connection right about now. Will the hotel, airport, coffee shop, bookstore or offsite workplace have an "n draft spec" Apple wireless router that Leopard can play well with?

I also cut a pretty wide swath with my Mac fanaticism & moderate expertise. And right now amongst my "crew", those experiencing wireless problems post-Leopard are about 1 out of every 3. Prior to Leopard, zero. Thirty-three percent failure isn't anywhere near acceptable. They've taken something that worked nearly perfectly, going back almost ten years, and made it not work for far too many people! And if it's been done in what amounts to an experiment of a "draft" wireless standard, it's even less tolerable. Experiment with Spaces, Stacks or the Calculator. Not wireless networking for crying out loud!

This issue makes non sense, I can't seem to find a pattern here. After weeks of not being able to stabilize my wireless connection and giving up (I simply turned off my wireless connection and started always using a cable), I decided to try my wifi link again tonight and what do you know it's been working all night, even after putting the laptop into sleep mode and back again. No dropped packets, no errors on the interface, no long ping times, everything is working great. I've changed absolutely nothing since last having problems. Hopefully this good luck will last, but I'm not optimistic.

None of my leopard machines worked with a airport extreme router.

Roll on 10.6

That's what would make me happy. If they acknowledged that they've made a rubbish OS patched it up enough to stop the bleeding and released a new one in a year with all the same features plus much more control over the GUI.

As someone who is used to XP, with all the early learning centre graphics turned off, I'd like to see this in OS X

Though if they did do that (which they won't) then it would have to be free to all of us who purchased an unusable OS (which it wouldn't be)

Todd Templeton wrote:
The word VASTLY was used to describe the importance of dependability and compatibility over new technology when it comes something as crucial to as many people as wireless connectivity. Would you not agree that IF this problem was caused by tinkering with a future "beta" wireless standard, it was perhaps not the wisest move on Apple's part? I think most people here would be just thrilled to have a good "old fashioned" dependable 802.11g connection right about now. Will the hotel, airport, coffee shop, bookstore or offsite workplace have an "n draft spec" Apple wireless router that Leopard can play well with?

That's up to the router manufacturers. No matter who you are, if you implement a draft standard, you've got to keep up with the draft.

As far as an ordinary 802.11b/g connection, as I've said before, I don't know what to say. I've mentioned I haven't seen an AirPort drop in over a year on my MacBook Pro talking to my AirPort Extreme Base Station, nor with routers at my workplace, or any public hotspot I've used.

So where's the issue? I don't know, and I'm sure Apple's working to sort it out. I honestly do understand the frustration of folks here.

But until Apple's engineers (and the posters here) know precisely what is to blame, it's quite unfair to blame Apple for the issue.

As I mentioned above, if going back to a different OS revision fixes it for you, you should do so. There's no point in beating your head against a wall. But as I've said over and over again, that doesn't mean it's Apple's problem.

Please don't make me cite the example of Mac OS X 10.3 Panther and FireWire bridge chips yet again.