Change Mail's default Top-posting behaviour

Question

Change Mail's default Top-posting behaviour

Hi,
I have been looking for a solution to the top-posting problem that Mail (and Mail2) have, the best way to describe what this problem means is by reading the following:

A: Because id10ts do not know how to configure their email programs.
Q: How does top-posting happen?
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

😉

Anyone has an idea on how to 'fix' this in Mail.app? The idea is to get the quoted text above and the cursor below by default. (not resorting to select the text to quote hacks).

Thanks!

Posted on Aug 24, 2005 9:38 AM

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Answer 1

freelancer

Level 5

6,140 points

Aug 24, 2005 1:51 PM in response to Martin Marconcini

Can you really not move the cursor after hitting "reply"?

The idea of putting the cursor at the top is to encourage you to go through the quoted text and trim the unnecessary parts, rather than just automatically quoting the entire thing, which is almost (but not quite) as bad as top-posting.

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Answer 2

Aug 24, 2005 2:12 PM in response to freelancer

I use Windows Outlook at work and it automatically places the curser above the quoted text when replying to a message.

There may be a preference setting I have missed but I agree with freelancer.

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Answer 3

Aug 24, 2005 4:05 PM in response to freelancer

Hi,

Asking me if I can move the cursor after hitting reply is just like saying: Can't you just put your coffee back in the microwave oven after it's ready in order to heat it ?

Let me enumerate you a few problems with that idea:

- "just" moving the cursor is not an option when you're quoting a large conversation.
- Your signature will be at the top... sigh
- You don't need to go through the entire thing, normally when you're following conversations you just need to read the last thing and, sometimes even quote in-between lines.

But please... move the cursor... hillarious.

No offense.

[ Edited by Apple Discussions Moderator ]

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Answer 4

Aug 24, 2005 4:09 PM in response to Allan Sampson

Well, excuse me Allan, but Windows Outlook has got nothing to do with Apple Mail. I consider Windows Outlook one of the worst mail clients, but that's a personal preference. Despite that negative image I have about Outlook, I believe that it is possible to do it "the other way".

We could talk about wether top-posting is good or bad; but saying that Apple's intention was to do it that way because you are supposed to:
a) move your cursor (and leave the signature on top? lol)
b) read the whole thing (which could be hundreds of lines with different quote levels) so you can trim it?

c'mon! Gimme a break.

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Answer 5

Aug 24, 2005 4:26 PM in response to Martin Marconcini

- You don't need to go through the entire thing, normally when you're following conversations you just need to read the last thing and,

b sometimes even quote in-between lines.

If you are wanting/needing to quote in-between lines, it requires scrolling up thru text if the cursor was automatically placed at the bottom so I'm not sure about any benefit here.

- Your signature will be at the top... sigh

In Mail, you can set the signature preferences to appear above or below quoted text when you reply to email.

I could find other problems; and the worst thing is, it's not the way it should be.

As previously provided, I use Windows Outlook at work and it automatically places the cursor above quoted text when replying to a message and Outlook is used by the majority of businesses throughout the World so I guess Microsoft is encouraging you to top post also.

I'm not sure which email clients provide what you are wanting by default or via a preference setting but if this is most important to you, no one is forcing you to use the Mail.app.

[ Edited by Apple Discussions Moderator ]

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Answer 6

freelancer

Level 5

6,140 points

Aug 24, 2005 4:31 PM in response to Martin Marconcini

a) move your cursor (and leave the signature on top? lol)

Why would your signature be on top? Did you check the "put signature above quoted text" preference, which is an abomination that should not have been included in the first place?

b) read the whole thing (which could be hundreds of lines with different quote levels) so you can trim it?

If you're replying to a message with hundreds of lines with different quote levels, and you're quoting the entire thing and not trimming it, and putting your reply at the bottom, you're just as bad as the top-posters.

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Answer 7

freelancer

Level 5

6,140 points

Aug 24, 2005 4:39 PM in response to Martin Marconcini

- "just" moving the cursor is not an option when you're quoting a large conversation.

If you're quoting a large conversation you need to ask yourself whether all of it needs to be quoted. If it's too big for you to deal with when composing a message, you know for an absolute fact that it is too much to be quoted for the person you're replying to.

- Your signature will be at the top... sigh

Only if that's where you told Mail to put it, for some obscene reason defying sanity.

- You don't need to go through the entire thing, normally when you're following conversations you just need to read the last thing and, sometimes even quote in-between lines.

Then you also don't need to quote the entire thing. Putting the cursor at the top is because you're composing a message, and you're starting at the top, with included text that is not supposed to be kept verbatim in the reply. You're supposed to edit it. Putting the cursor at the bottom would encourage people to think you're supposed to "just type" and leave the entire quoted message included, which is stupid.

I could find other problems; and the worst thing is, it's not the way it should be. top-posting suc**, Apple mail encourages you to top post. Apple's Mail behaviour suc**. Period. Can we change it? No. ok, you either find an alternative or, like me, live with it.

There is nothing about putting the cursor at the top of a new message that is meant to encourage top-posting. It is meant to suggest that you are not adding to a message, you are composing a new one, and the already-present text is there to help you, not to remain there as-is for your recipient to have to scroll through to get to what you have to say.

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Answer 8

Aug 24, 2005 5:34 PM in response to freelancer

Well, excuse me but i don't agree with your posts. (both of you).

Either none of you use your mail in forums where there might be long kernel output posting or you just hit reply, type and send.

A reply has got to be carefully edited (when there's tech info in it).

Just nevermind, thank you for your answer. The answer is: you cannot put your cursor below.

Thanks.

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Answer 9

Oct 4, 2005 6:17 PM in response to Martin Marconcini

Thanks for your post Martin. I, like you, am a bit disappointed that this thread became a debate over the merits of top-posting, and not simply a quick discussion of whether or not this behavior is configurable in Mail.app.

Since it seems that it is not configurable, perhaps it would be worth a feature request to Apple. Certainly noone can argue with configurability (ie: the USER'S CHOICE to have things work either way).

Rusty

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Answer 10

Oct 5, 2005 12:36 AM in response to Rusty Ross

Heheh, I didn't mean to offend anybody (although they might have not liked my tone). I like Apple and hope to keep using it for many years, but Mail.app needs 'just a few more options' to allow not only the Power user to be satisfied, but also to encourage some good practices to novice or casual users. The same goes to most Apple Apps.

Despite that, the defaults are mostly sane and I like it. I simply got used to hit cmd-down to get to the bottom of the mail and start from there.

What the repliers failed to see, is that a good conversation is already trimmed by each poster; you do want to quote all but the last part, which ought to be edited. Failure to do so, will result in the sequence being broken. That is my opinion, that is what i see on every tech list, that is what I prefer also; if I determine that a quote is no longer needed in the 'thread', then is up to me (or the writter) to snip the 'no longer needed' parts. But of course, as some other posted noted, this is not always the desired behaviour. Would be nice if the decision were up to me, and not an Apple enginner 🙂

A 'templated' approach like The Bat for Windows would be nice to have in Mail.app.

Martin.

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Answer 11

Oct 5, 2005 4:49 AM in response to Martin Marconcini

Hmm....

I hear what Rusty saying about user choice, but then you get situations like this:

No, it is NOT!!

No, it is isn't!

Bottom-posting is better.

Yes, it is!

Yes, it IS!!

I am partly convinced that by encouraging top-posting, Apple is onto something.

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Answer 12

Oct 6, 2005 3:34 PM in response to Timothy Gaden

oh... but when I hear about situations like this:

Yes.

From: xxxx
Date: 1 de octubre de 2005 12:00:36 GMT+02:00
To: yyyy
Subject: Re: Is there chennel bonding for network cards

On Sat, Oct 01, 2005 at 08:18:14AM +0000, x@yy.com wrote:

imagine a lot of text describing a problem with some questions > (do I need to post > a sample?)

I am fully convinced that by encouraging top-posting, Apple is onto something wrong.

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Answer 13

Oct 7, 2005 8:34 AM in response to Martin Marconcini

This was discussed (and fought over!) many years ago in Gulliver's Travels - should eggs be opened at the big end or the little end. There is no right answer on topics such as this, merely differences of style and opinion.

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Answer 14

Oct 7, 2005 8:40 AM in response to Austin Kinsella1

There is no right answer on topics such as this, merely differences of style and opinion.

Which is why I think a simple checkbox would go a long way!

Rusty

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