AC3

Why is AC3 considered DVD quality?

It seems to me that it is no different than MP3. I thought DVD was suppose to be higher (or equal) quality than CD.

see..
http://web.mac.com/shaffer.david/iWeb/Site2008/SurroundSound.html
[The AC3 files are about 1/11 the size of the CAF files. That's about the same as MP3.]

Maybe I should be asking this in the DVDSP group; but I get the feeling that they don't think about audio much.

G5 Quad, Mac OS X (10.4.10), iPod 1.2.1; MOTU 828 mkII / Eureka; Logic (Ozone)

Posted on Mar 8, 2008 8:49 PM

Reply
10 replies

Mar 9, 2008 11:32 AM in response to Gary Maguire

I was playing around with FCS, Logic, and DVDSP.

Logic and FCS work great with CAF. But, DVDSP won't take CAF. So, I looked for a way to get AIFF in 5.1 but didn't see a listing in Compressor. So, I looked around on the Internet and noticed AC3; and noticed that there was an option in Compressor to do AC3. And as it turned-out, DVDSP will accept AC3. So, that's what led me to AC3. But, I didn't notice that AC3 was compressed until a few days ago, which is why I asked the question. I made too many assumptions and didn't look into the details.

But now, I noticed that Compressor will do a QT 5.1 file that DVDSP will accept. So, I guess I can use that for full quality PCM on a DVD.

And yes, I did know that AAC could do 5.1, but I didn't want a compressed format. But, I've never heard of MP3 5.1.

One last thing, DVD Player and DVDSP won't play the audio in 5.1. You have to take it to a 5.1 system to hear it. So, I was wondering if iTunes would play an AAC/MP3 in 5.1 if it was available. Do you know if that works? Also, Compressor doesn't seem to want to convert the CAF file to a 5.1 AAC - it only does stereo AAC.

Anyway, I've made a lot of assumptions about 5.1; and there is a lot of missing functionality (it seems) in OSX, in general, with regard to end-user consumption of 5.1 mixes.

Mar 9, 2008 12:48 PM in response to shaffer.david

probably worth looking at the link belo regarding MP3 surround. It was covered in sound on sound a few months ago.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan08/articles/mp3surround.htm

As for AC3 It can handle up to 6 channels (one low Freq) at up to 48k 24 bit per channel. It probably does handle compressed formats but as standard I dont think it is compressed. Probably worth looking at the wiki page (Link below)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital

Mar 9, 2008 2:04 PM in response to shaffer.david

I'm not sure what your target is for surround sound, but as far as Logic and Compressor goes, the workflow is as follows:

In Logic, you work in a surround project, and bounce your audio tracks to discrete L/C/L/Ls/Rs/LFE channels. That's 6 audio files. In Compressor, there is an "Add Surround Sound" button at the top of the job window. Clicking that will reveal a matrix in which to drag and drop your 6 files. Then use one of the Surround settings (like Dolby Digital Professional 5.1 preset), submit the batch, and you'll have a file (with a .AC3 extension) that can be used in DVDSP to author a DVD with surround sound.

You mention that you don't want a compressed format. It might interest you that the highest bitrate you can use for AC3 is 448 kbps. In relation to MP3, most people's perception of quality loss is at 128 kbps, while others with "better ears" top off at 256 kbps or 384 kbps. Consider the fact that the majority of Hollywood movies on DVD, if not all, use Dolby Digital encoded around 384-448 kbps. Some of those have a higher-fidelity, alternate DTS sound track which is still compressed at 4:1. For true, uncompressed audio, you're looking at stereo PCM--no surround. There is Dolby TrueHD, which uses a lossless algorithm, but this is in the realm of Blu-ray discs.

Again, how you encode your surround stuff depends on your target. While MP3 surround is an option of delivery, compression issue aside, your audience needs a playback mechanism for this format. The best you might get across is a perceptual surround playback on headphones, since most people who download your Surround MP3 files will be listening on their computers. You asked if iTunes would play AAC/MP3 in 5.1. Well, I can't tell you about AAC, since I've never dealt with that particular format when it comes to surround, but Surround MP3 files are supposedly backward compatible, so they can be heard on standard MP3 playback mechanisms (software/hardware). You won't hear the surround aspects of them, though.

Anyway, I've made a lot of assumptions about 5.1; and there is a lot of missing functionality (it seems) in OSX, in general, with regard to end-user consumption of 5.1 mixes.


Most certainly. I think that if the desktops come with a built-in optical port, there should be more support for surround audio playback through the computer. Admittedly, I haven't looked too far into this since I don't have a surround setup other than via discrete 5.1 channels.

Mar 9, 2008 2:56 PM in response to Gary Maguire

Thanks a bazillion for the links!!!

The article was good (what I was able to read anyway). And, I was able to download the MP3 Surround Encoder/Decoder and got it to work. For the encoder, I had to bounce as "Wave"; and then, drop that onto the encoder window - it wouldn't take CAF, QT, AC3, or individual AIFFs.

The MP3 Surround Encoder/Decoder is at
http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/EN/bf/amm/mp3sur/downld/index.jsp

The MP3 Surround song that I encoded is at..
http://homepage.mac.com/shaffer.david/StarLight.mp3

There is, however, a noticeable difference between what I hear in the full quality version in Logic verses the MP3. The MP3 sounds a bit thin. I am kinda surprised at this because normal MP3s seem to be a lot more accurate than what this produced.

Anyway, the MP3 Surround player works on my hardware (MOTU 828 mkII). I didn't have to go to the System Preferences or anything - it just worked.

Thanks for the tips!

Mar 9, 2008 3:05 PM in response to Andrew Tokuda

My original target was DVD-A. But, I discovered that normal DVD players won't play DVD-A. And there isn't anyone I know that has a DVD-A, so....

Yep, I used Compressor to generate the AC3. But, I didn't read the specs carefully. BTW.. You can just drop a CAF onto Compressor. There's no need to bounce to individual files.

The fact that most all of Hollywood uses that compressed format is what surprised me. I was under the impression that the audio was full quality PCM.

I wish Finder and all would just play the file as 5.1 if it is 5.1. If the MP3 Surround program can play 5.1; and Logic can, why can't the rest of OSX play the files correctly? And yeah, most everyone has a PC (or sound system) with surround capabilities. There's no reason not to use the 5.1 functionality anymore.

Anyway, thanks for the info and tips...

Mar 9, 2008 3:52 PM in response to shaffer.david

There is no question that AC3 or as it is sometimes called, Dolby Digital is a heavily compressed format. The beauty, if you will, of Dolby Digital is that it contains metadata specific to film mixes. At the same time it can contain multiple mix formats, and downmixes, automatically detected and produced within the DVD player itself. in other words with one file on a DVD you can deliver to every DVD player and playback format available. AC3 files can also contain multiple languages.

As with everything Dolby you can get a lot of information from the [Dolby Labs website|http://www.dolby.com/resources/tech_library/index.cfm] - search for Dolby Digital (AC3).

DVD-A is a whole other story, and is usually uncompressed audio streams. But as you noticed only DVD-Audio players can play them, unless they are dualdisc format which can also contains CD or regular DVD tracks. Dualdiscs are often themselves the cause of a lot of playback imcompatibilities.

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