User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Virus TI Polar as Control Surface?

I want to my Virus TI Polar (using the hardware knobs) as a control surface for some of Logic's soft synths, but I've been unable to do so. I've tried a number of things (within the Control Surfaces Setup and the Controller Assignments Window), but before detailing what I've tried and what happens, does anyone know if it's simply not possible to use the Virus as a control surface for Logic's plug-ins? I'll be happy to detail what I've tried if someone out there knows or thinks it's possible. Thanks.

Power Mac Dual 2.0 G5, Mac OS X (10.5.2), Logic 8.0.1

Posted on Apr 2, 2008 1:43 PM

Reply
14 replies
User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Jul 11, 2015 9:38 AM in response to pjberry

I contacted Access tech support, and their rep said, "I'm very sorry to say but it is not possible to use the TI frontpanel to edit the Logic internal PlugIns. The TI only can edit PlugIns that can be edited by using Midi Controllers and SysEx commands. Therefore this only goes for third party PlugIns - so PlugIns like the ones listed as controller templates on the REMOTE mode page of the TI PlugIn."

As far as using the Virus as an audio interface, I have a separate audio interface so unfortunately I don't know the answer to that problem.
Reply
User profile for user: Bee Jay
Bee Jay
User level: Level 6
10,900 points

Apr 3, 2008 11:58 AM in response to Community User

I don't understand - the knobs either send MIDI or they don't. If they can edit other plugs, they must be sending MIDI, surely? Or is there some bizarre software layer on the computer that communicates with the Virus by non-MIDI means (such as proprietry USB commands, or something?)

If it sends MIDI, it can edit Logic plugins.

"The TI only can edit PlugIns that can be edited by using Midi Controllers and SysEx commands"


Like, um, Logic's internal plugins...

Are you trying to do this via MIDI learn, or controller assignments?
Reply
User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Jul 11, 2015 9:38 AM in response to Bee Jay

Bee Jay,

To be honest, I was confused too, so I checked this by twisting some of my Virus' knobs, and hitting some of its keys, and looking at the Logic Transport MIDI Activity display. When I hit a Virus key, MIDI info is displayed, but when I twist knobs, no MIDI activity registers (the displays read "No In").

My guess is that maybe you're on to something speculating about some proprietary USB commands. I personally had just decided to take the Access rep's word for it that the Virus can't control Logic's plugins, because I've communicated with the same guy on a variety of issues in the past and he's been really helpful and knowledgeable.

And, to answer your other question, I did try at one point using Logic's controller assignments window to individually assign Virus knobs to ES1 and ES2 parameters, but it didn't work (long story). I also tried using Logic's Control Surfaces Setup to create a Virus device with no luck. To be honest I've spent so much time on it I'm just kind of burned out...but if you have any other ideas I'll take them - Thanks!
Reply
User profile for user: Bee Jay
Bee Jay
User level: Level 6
10,900 points

Apr 3, 2008 12:57 PM in response to Community User

To be honest, I was confused too, so I checked this by twisting some of my Virus' knobs, and hitting some of its keys, and looking at the Logic Transport MIDI Activity display. When I hit a Virus key, MIDI info is displayed, but when I twist knobs, no MIDI activity registers (the displays read "No In").


Yes, but that does not necessarily mean it's not sending MIDI to Logic. 😉

There are scenarios where that is normal - for example, if your Virus is on a MIDI port designated as a control surface, or has commands learnt by controller assignments, the controller assignments layer intercepts and 'steals' the MIDI commands so they don't ever reach the sequencer part of Logic (so they will not be indiciated in the transport window).

Logic 7.1 had a great feature of a MIDI input monitor (taken from Soundiver) but it was removed in 7.2... this showed all MIDI input activity before Logic did anything with it, and so would show control surface MIDI data.

My guess is that maybe you're on to something speculating about some proprietary USB commands. I personally had just decided to take the Access rep's word for it that the Virus can't control Logic's plugins, because I've communicated with the same guy on a variety of issues in the past and he's been really helpful and knowledgeable.


It was just a guess, really. Do they have the Virus manual online I could take a gander at..?

And, to answer your other question, I did try at one point using Logic's controller assignments window to individually assign Virus knobs to ES1 and ES2 parameters, but it didn't work (long story).


Same deal - no MIDI events are seen at all?

I also tried using Logic's Control Surfaces Setup to create a Virus device with no luck.


It's not still defined as a control surface in your setup, I take it?

What I would do is try using something like MIDIpipe to examine the MIDI coming in - leave Logic out of the equation at first. Twiddle the Virus knobs - is any MIDI data been generated at all, or any MIDI port..?
Reply
User profile for user: Bee Jay
Bee Jay
User level: Level 6
10,900 points

Apr 3, 2008 1:12 PM in response to Bee Jay

It looks like you use the Virus Control Remote page to set up the messages the knobs should send, if you don't want to use the preset templates. These accept sysex strings (I don't know if they have to be sysex, or whether you can specify controller strings etc) but the controller assignments in Logic can map sysex strings to commands, as long as they are too long.

So I can't see why it isn't doable - if someone wants to buy me a Virus TI I'll be more than happy to investigate further... 😉
Reply
User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Jul 11, 2015 9:38 AM in response to Bee Jay

Bee Jay, thanks for all your help. Below are my best answers, though I might be getting in over my head...

There are scenarios where that is normal - for example, if your Virus is on a MIDI port designated as a control surface, or has commands learnt by controller assignments, the controller assignments layer intercepts and 'steals' the MIDI commands so they don't ever reach the sequencer part of Logic (so they will not be indiciated in the transport window).


Hmm, according my Audio Midi setup, the Virus has two ports "Virus TI MIDI" and "Virus TI Synth (internal)". I don't know how I would know whether either of these are "designated" as a control surface.

It was just a guess, really. Do they have the Virus manual online I could take a gander at..?


Sure - go to http://www.access-music.de/downloads.php4?product=virustipolar#cat4 -- there are two documents, "Virus Control Tutorial" (the first on the list) and " Using the Virus TI with Logic 7" the fourth one on the list (there's no manual for using the Virus with Logic 8 yet, that I know of.

And, to answer your other question, I did try at one point using Logic's controller assignments window to individually assign Virus knobs to ES1 and ES2 parameters, but it didn't work (long story).


Same deal - no MIDI events are seen at all?


What happens is this: In learn mode, I'd touch the ES1 cutoff knob, for example. I'd see the "waiting for incoming messages" message; in the "control" column of the window it will say "no message received yet"; in the parameter column I'd see "ES1: Cutoff". Then I'd move the Virus Filter 1 Cutoff knob, and the parameter column will change to "Virus TI: Filter1 Cutoff", but the "control" column will still say "no message received yet", (which I don't think it should say, right?). In any case, at that point I'd try going out of learn mode, and the Virus Filter cutoff knob will not control the ES1 cutoff knob. Sometimes, thinking I was doing the process wrong, I'd try it in reverse, moving the Virus knob, then the ES1, etc., but it never works.
I also tried using Logic's Control Surfaces Setup to create a Virus device with no luck.


It's not still defined as a control surface in your setup, I take it?


That's right. I couldn't add it by scanning or manual add.
What I would do is try using something like MIDIpipe to examine the MIDI coming in - leave Logic out of the equation at first. Twiddle the Virus knobs - is any MIDI data been generated at all, or any MIDI port..?


I'll try this. I'm under the weather today and I think I should go home and crash, so the next time I respond might not be til tomorrow. Thanks again for taking the time to help, Bee Jay.
Reply
User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Jul 11, 2015 9:38 AM in response to Bee Jay

Ahh, you beat me to the punch on that last reply. Hmm, I thought that the Virus Remote page meant assigning the TI interface knobs, not the hardware knobs, but we all know the cliche about "assume"...anyway tomorrow I think I'll contact Access again and see if you're right. The only problem is, I've never written sysex strings or controller strings and when I started to investigate that I got sort of lost in Manual no man's land. But I'm going to give it a try if it's doable... As far as buying you that Virus, I'll work on getting a line of credit from Bear Stearns 😉
Reply
User profile for user: Bee Jay
Bee Jay
User level: Level 6
10,900 points

Apr 4, 2008 6:16 AM in response to Community User

Hmm, according my Audio Midi setup, the Virus has two ports "Virus TI MIDI" and "Virus TI Synth (internal)"


If it acts as a MIDI interface, the Virus TI MIDI port could be direct access to the midi ports on the Virus for other devices. YOu should be able to see which port messages are coming down by using monitor objects in the environment.

What happens is this: In learn mode, I'd touch the ES1 cutoff knob, for example. I'd see the "waiting for incoming messages" message; in the "control" column of the window it will say "no message received yet"; in the parameter column I'd see "ES1: Cutoff". Then I'd move the Virus Filter 1 Cutoff knob, and the parameter column will change to "Virus TI: Filter1 Cutoff", but the "control" column will still say "no message received yet", (which I don't think it should say, right?). In any case, at that point I'd try going out of learn mode, and the Virus Filter cutoff knob will not control the ES1 cutoff knob. Sometimes, thinking I was doing the process wrong, I'd try it in reverse, moving the Virus knob, then the ES1, etc., but it never works.


Hmm... it's difficult to say without having hands on access. But you move the knob, and the controller assignments recognise that, so it's definitely sending something. That would imply it exists as a control surface.

That's right. I couldn't add it by scanning or manual add.


Ah! Well, that's why you are not seeing the MIDI messages - they are being intercepted by the controller assignments. Removing it as a control surface - now the MIDI the knobs sent will be available for you to do with what you will...

Now, if the control surface functionality is the only way it communicates with the Virus plugin thing, you might have to compromise, but give it a go...
Reply
User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Jul 11, 2015 9:38 AM in response to Bee Jay

Bee Jay, thanks very much - you helped me solve the problem.

As you suggested, you use the Virus TI Remote page (on the Virus TI's GUI) to create new remote templates and write MIDI strings. I didn't try this before because I assumed wrongly that this was only for the Virus GUI, not the hardware - but it does assign the Virus' hardware knobs to the ES1's parameters. This worked without a Virus device being created in Logic's Controller Setup, and without making any controller assignments in Logic.

So I've got the Virus hardware controlling the ES1, now I'm hoping I can get it to control other Logic soft synths. Now the only problem is that, though Logic's Instruments and Effects manual has a MIDI controller list for the ES1 and the EVB3, it doesn't have a controller number list for the ES2 or EXS24, though it looks like maybe I can use the routers in those instruments to do the same thing. If you know how I can find out the controller numbers for the ES2's or EXS24's parameters, please let me know.

Thanks again!!
Reply
User profile for user: Bee Jay
Bee Jay
User level: Level 6
10,900 points

Apr 4, 2008 10:27 AM in response to Community User

Ok, so we're getting somewhere... 😉

Ok - now (again note, I'm only doing this by feel, because I don't have any direct experience with the TI) I wouldn't do it that - using the Virus Control software to change MIDI strings etc. I would pick or create one standard template to use, so all the knobs etc send out unique controller values - doesn't matter which ones, as long as each knob is unique.

Now, we don't use the plugins own MIDI mapping for parameters, bcause it is inflexible, inconsistent, and not all plugins support it anyway.

I would use Logic's controller assignments.

So - load up the ES1, hit command-L to enter learn mode, twiddle the filter cutof on the ES1, twiddle the Virus cutoff knob. That should now be assigned. Do the same for the other controls.

Then load up an ES2, and learn the assignments you want for that. And keep ging for all the plugins you want. All you assignments will show up in the controller assignments window and can be edited.

Note - there are frustrating bugs in the controller assignments handling that I've long documented and harped on about. One of these is that when you learn a substantial amount of plugins (I guess, 20 or more with eight or more assignments each) the controller assignments start going buggy and individual mappings start to fail - really annoying.

But this should at least get you in the ball park...
Reply
User profile for user: Community User
Community User Author

Jul 11, 2015 9:38 AM in response to Bee Jay

This works!!! Thanks, man, I really appreciate it. If there's anything I can do to return the favor, let me know (short of buying you a Virus 😉 Do you write techno? I'd love to hear some of your material. I write prog house. See my profile for my email address (I'll only keep it visible for a couple hours or if/when I hear from you). Cheers, Tim

To those who are had the same problem I had: NOTE: Before using Logic's learn function to , you must create a single Virus TI Remote Template (or maybe use a preset) on the Virus Remote Page - see pages 24-26 of the Virus Control Tutorial.
Reply

This thread has been closed by the system or the community team. You may vote for any posts you find helpful, or search the Community for additional answers.

Virus TI Polar as Control Surface?

Welcome to Apple Support Community
A forum where Apple customers help each other with their products. Get started with your Apple Account.
Learn more Sign up