Level 1

10 points

Comcast "traffic management" blocks Extend mode of AirPort Express 'n' ???

In another thread, I posted that I was unable to access the Internet using my AirPort Express 'n' to Extend my AirPort Extreme 'n'. With the AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode, computers connected to it, either wirelessly or via the Ethernet port, were unable to access the Internet, even though the Network preferences of the computer showed that it had a valid IP address, and the Network preferences Diagnostics indicated that the connection appeared to be working correctly and showed all green status lights. This problem occurred only in the Extend mode of an AirPort Express 'n', and regardless of whether the AirPort Extreme 'n' being extended was in the 5.0 GHz 'n' only mode, the 2.4 GHz 'n' only mode, or the 'n' (b/g compatible) mode. Both AirPorts were running the latest firmware version 7.3.1, all IP and DNS information was verified to be correct, and OpenDNS addresses were tried with no effect on the problem.

In this previous thread, three other people reported the same problem with the same symptoms, and two people reported that they were NOT having the problem and that they WERE able to access the Internet with their AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode. Of the people reporting the same problem, ALL reported that their ISP was Comcast. Of the people reporting that their Extend mode WAS working, ALL reported that their ISP was NOT Comcast.

This seemed like too much of a coincidence to ignore, so I have started this thread to see whether or not other people are experiencing the same problem with their AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode and to see what ISP they are using.

Here are the results from the previous thread, and I will keep a running total of any new results reported.

People with Comcast ISP whose Extend mode is NOT working --- 4
GARYsParries
devasolomon
Boston Dog
dannym098

People with Comcast ISP whose Extend mode IS working --- 0

People without Comcast ISP whose Extend mode is NOT working --- 0

People without Comcast ISP whose Extend mode IS working --- 2
cardsdoc
MusicMan0725

For those of you that have not been keeping up with the news reports about the Comcast "traffic management" issue, Comcast has been accused by BitTorrent and the FCC of conducting unfair practices to manage their Internet traffic for the purpose of keeping traffic flowing smoothly. As a result, Comcast has agreed to discontinue these practices by the end of 2008.

MacBook Pro 17" Core Duo, Mac OS X (10.5.2)

Posted on Apr 5, 2008 6:43 AM

237 replies

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 13, 2008 9:32 PM in response to GARYsParries

iMac, thanks for the info on the other thread.

On this thread, we have confirmed that both a TC/Express combination and an Extreme/Extreme combination will provide complete Internet access in Extend mode without any problems.

I would also extrapolate that, in general, multiple TCs, multiple Expresses, multiple Extremes, and combinations of multiple TCs and Expresses will provide complete Internet access in Extend mode without any problems.

What does NOT work, as you know, is any combination of Extremes with Expresses or TCs.

Good luck with your setup.

AuniMac

Level 1

0 points

Jun 13, 2008 9:45 PM in response to GARYsParries

Thanks Gary. I guess it is back to the Apple store with the Express. Since I have an Extreme, I guess I'll just exchange the new Express for another Extreme.

It is puzzling that you guys can get TC and Express working but, not Extreme and Express, isn't it?

Sure did like the idea of just plugging the Express into the wall outlet and having the wireless network wherever I wanted it. Being able to move it around or being able to get a couple to plug in around the house made the Express very attractive.

And, for the record, I have Comcast and if I want to turn off WPA2, it all works fine.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 14, 2008 6:26 AM in response to GARYsParries

iMac, I know what you mean about the convenience of the Express. I also had an Express and an Extreme, and returned the Express for a second Extreme. I will say though that the two Extremes provides much better coverage than an Express and an Extreme, so I am happy about that. I use the Extremes in 5 GHz n-only mode, so I get the full advantage of 'n' speeds without having to slow the network down with b/g compatibility, but then I've hardwired my older 'g' Express to one of the Extremes to Create a second, differently named, wireless network just for my 'g' devices.

You could similarly use your Express to Create a second wireless network with n-b/g compatibility, while using your two Extremes in 5 GHz n-only mode. The second wireless network would function together with the first as a single local network, so all devices would have complete access to one another, regardless of to which of the three bases they were connected.

And, they will all have complete Internet access with WPA2 password protection enabled, even on Comcast. 🙂

Jun 14, 2008 8:54 AM in response to GARYsParries

I would like it noted that another person can get internet without encryption on Comcast, lending further evidence to my Same Animal argument!

I am wondering... so only two people on Comcast can get this to work without encryption? I would like to know what those two people show as the DNS servers vs the people with Comcast that get nothing no matter what when using the extreme as the extender.

Gary, it is interesting that this thread has gotten so big in the Express topic when it looks like it actually is an issue with the Extreme. I have been browsing the forums looking for other people reporting similar problems but who do not have Comcast. With the title of this thread being "Comcast traffic management" I would imagine that not many other people are going to look in here. I know that while flailing around with this issue, I never saw this thread till I was directed to it. I think there is a very good chance this is much more wide spread than originally thought.

AuniMac

Level 1

0 points

Jun 14, 2008 11:30 AM in response to toddlydavis

Gary... yep I'm going to do the same as you. I have an older Express that hardwires into the network already and I have a nExpress at work that I can take with me on trips.

Todd... Comcast is not a problem and never has been. If you read the thread from the TimeCapsule I linked to above, you will see that we had the same problem with the TC + Extreme (back in March) as you guys are having with the Express + Extreme.

Back in March I was only able to get internet with TC + Extreme if "none" was picked for security, and that was with Comcast.

Something about Express AND TimeCapsule is buggy and it has to do with security.

Here is something interesting... when I disable WPA2 on the Express and restart it, it comes back with one problem found... you are not connected to the internet. By the time I get to the bottom of the Airport Utility page to select the solve problem button... magically Airport Utility changes the message and reports that the problem was solved and I have internet on this connection now.

Everything else posted about Comcast and other possible causes are probably artifacts of something else. The problem is very simply this:

===> Something about the implementation of the WPA2 security blocks the the access point/router from routing wireless bridged packets between the local network to the WAN when certain combinations of Apple routers are bridged together in a n-network (these combinations have already been described well by Gary above).

Jun 14, 2008 11:54 AM in response to AuniMac

I have the packet problem with WPA2, WPA/WPA2, and WEP encryption. Only using no encryption fixes it for me, or of course using WDS as I am now.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 14, 2008 6:16 PM in response to GARYsParries

I really should go back and tally up all the results posted on this thread as I had been doing early on, but as you say, the thread has grown too large.

For a while, it was pretty clear cut. Comcast users were not able to access the Internet in Extend mode, and non Comcast users were able to access the Internet in Extend mode, period. Then, a couple of Comcast users were able to access the Internet with encryption disabled, but only a couple, and even one Comcast user was able to access the Internet with encryption enabled, but not in 5 GHz mode, which required encryption disabled. And some non Comcast users reported sporadic Internet access with encryption enabled, which cleared up when encryption was disabled.

The one thing that is clear now is that, for Comcast and non Comcast users alike, the latest model TCs and Expresses play well together, and the older model Extremes play well together, but the two groups cannot be mixed. I think Todd is right about there being a common cause to the problem for both Comcast and non Comcast users, it's just that the symptoms are manifested differently for Comcast vs. non Comcast users ... which may or may not have something to do with Comcast's 'traffic management' policies. 🙂

AuniMac

Level 1

0 points

Jun 14, 2008 9:38 PM in response to GARYsParries

Went to the Apple store and returned the Express 😟

Then bought an Extreme 🙂

For the first time I have a bridged network and can sit on my balcony and look at the view and access the internet! AppleTV connects to the bridged Extreme and everything on my wireless network plays together and behaves. WPA2 security works perfectly.

And... it took about 3 minutes to set up!

I'm out of here... good luck to everyone and thanks for all the help,

Auni

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 14, 2008 10:46 PM in response to GARYsParries

iMac, see that. Three months on the other thread and you're pulling out your hair. Two days on this thread, and you're a happy camper. Good luck to you.

Jun 16, 2008 3:09 PM in response to GARYsParries

So I exchanged my Extreme today as Apple had requested. As expected the symptoms are exactly the same. The only reason I did this is so that Apple Care would have to continue the case with me. So I called today, and when I got to tier 2 there were hints that this would be the standard reset and retry session, that is till I mentioned that this is real similar to what the Comcast people are seeing. After that statement we did NO configuration work on my network, he just wrote up a report to send to engineering. I am expecting contact back.

I did notice a new question before I was sent to tier two this time (and I have called plenty) "Who is your ISP?"

I am thinking that this issue is starting to get through the defenses. I spent several hours today going to the Apple Store, Sitting with a Genius, Exchanging my Extreme, Reseting the whole network anew, Calling Apple Care, just to help put this issue in front of Apple. I knew that there would be no solution but I wanted to do my part to make sure Apple is aware of this. The more people that use resources (Apple Care, Returns, Genius Bar) the more likely this will get fixed.

I am now back to my WDS just as I was before this 3 hour long venture. I will keep you posted if I get any new info from engineering.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 16, 2008 4:06 PM in response to GARYsParries

Todd, you're a better man than I. 🙂

Jun 16, 2008 5:37 PM in response to GARYsParries

Indeed, Todd your diligence is much appreciated!

So, as I'm new to this thread, I want to make sure I'm understanding things correctly as a Comcast subscriber.

In order to successfully extend my wireless 5Ghz n-only network with WPA2 encryption and Comcast, I'll need (2) Gigabit, n Extremes?

As a current owner of (1) n, Gigabit Extreme and (1) n Express, it seems my only option is to purchase another n, Gigabit Extreme to extend the 5Ghz n-only wireless network to the second floor of my home. I could then use the Express (wired via Ethernet to the extending Extreme) for AirTunes and as a g wireless network for my iPhone and g PC laptop.

I was considering the TC briefly as Internet->TC->Extreme(extended), though it appears based on other threads that this won't work either - at least not with WPA2 and Comcast. I think I've ruled out the TC anyway considering the AirDisk now works with Time Machine. In addition, reports indicate that wireless throughput is not as strong with the TC as the Extreme (can anyone in this thread comment on the TC?).

I am headed in the right direction?
I certainly hope I didn't confuse things here.

Thanks

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 16, 2008 7:17 PM in response to GARYsParries

Radar, you are definitely headed in the right direction. An Extreme extending another Extreme works perfectly. As does an Express extending a TC. What does NOT work is an Express extending an Extreme or an Extreme extending a TC.

As you say, if you have an unworkable base left over, you can always hardwire it to one of your workable bases via Internet and use it to Create a second, differently named, wireless network that will function with the first wireless network as a single local network.

I cannot verify the wireless throughput of the Extreme vs. TC; however, I can verify that an Extreme extending another Extreme provides better wireless coverage than an Express extending a TC.

Good luck with your setup.

Jun 17, 2008 6:13 PM in response to GARYsParries

I'm having the comcast problem, and for two straight days, until now, it has been driving me crazy. I even re-sprained my wrist after punching a wall in frustration. I appreciate your organization and determination to fix this problem it seems many of us were having. I will go trade in my new express for an extreme tomorrow after work. Much appreciated.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 20, 2008 6:53 AM in response to GARYsParries

Thanks, Imagine. Let us know how you make out ... and if those holes you punched in the wall do anything to help the signal get through. 🙂

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Comcast "traffic management" blocks Extend mode of AirPort Express 'n' ???