Level 1

10 points

Comcast "traffic management" blocks Extend mode of AirPort Express 'n' ???

In another thread, I posted that I was unable to access the Internet using my AirPort Express 'n' to Extend my AirPort Extreme 'n'. With the AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode, computers connected to it, either wirelessly or via the Ethernet port, were unable to access the Internet, even though the Network preferences of the computer showed that it had a valid IP address, and the Network preferences Diagnostics indicated that the connection appeared to be working correctly and showed all green status lights. This problem occurred only in the Extend mode of an AirPort Express 'n', and regardless of whether the AirPort Extreme 'n' being extended was in the 5.0 GHz 'n' only mode, the 2.4 GHz 'n' only mode, or the 'n' (b/g compatible) mode. Both AirPorts were running the latest firmware version 7.3.1, all IP and DNS information was verified to be correct, and OpenDNS addresses were tried with no effect on the problem.

In this previous thread, three other people reported the same problem with the same symptoms, and two people reported that they were NOT having the problem and that they WERE able to access the Internet with their AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode. Of the people reporting the same problem, ALL reported that their ISP was Comcast. Of the people reporting that their Extend mode WAS working, ALL reported that their ISP was NOT Comcast.

This seemed like too much of a coincidence to ignore, so I have started this thread to see whether or not other people are experiencing the same problem with their AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode and to see what ISP they are using.

Here are the results from the previous thread, and I will keep a running total of any new results reported.

People with Comcast ISP whose Extend mode is NOT working --- 4
GARYsParries
devasolomon
Boston Dog
dannym098

People with Comcast ISP whose Extend mode IS working --- 0

People without Comcast ISP whose Extend mode is NOT working --- 0

People without Comcast ISP whose Extend mode IS working --- 2
cardsdoc
MusicMan0725

For those of you that have not been keeping up with the news reports about the Comcast "traffic management" issue, Comcast has been accused by BitTorrent and the FCC of conducting unfair practices to manage their Internet traffic for the purpose of keeping traffic flowing smoothly. As a result, Comcast has agreed to discontinue these practices by the end of 2008.

MacBook Pro 17" Core Duo, Mac OS X (10.5.2)

Posted on Apr 5, 2008 6:43 AM

237 replies

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

May 22, 2008 5:25 PM in response to DavidDavid

Thanks, David. It was not too long ago that I was in the same boat you are in, so I know how frustrating it can be when things don't work the way they're supposed to. 🙂

May 22, 2008 9:31 PM in response to GARYsParries

I, too, have been struggling with this very problem. My provider is not Comcast, but rather a local provider. Interestingly, as was pointed out by another in this thread, my Express (n) IS on the network and will allow streaming of itunes, etc., but will not allow access to the internet. The Express is in Extend mode connected to my Extreme (n) which is connected to the internet. When I connect directly to the Extreme (wired or wirelessly), it will provide internet services very well.

May 22, 2008 10:27 PM in response to Laryenth Lancaster

One additional point. After reading through all of these posts again, there has been no distinction between the pre-gigabit extreme(n) and the post-gigabit extreme(n). For the record, mine is pre-gigabit.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

May 23, 2008 6:51 AM in response to GARYsParries

Lary, welcome to the club, although you are the FIRST non Comcast user on this thread to be experiencing this same problem. Other non Comcast users were able to access some Internet, but not all Internet. I wonder if your local ISP is somehow using Comcast for their Internet access. 🙂

That was a very good point about Extremes with Fast vs. Gigabit Ethernet. It never came up, but since there were absolutely ZERO Comcast users that were ABLE to access the Internet with an Express extending an Extreme (versus the many who could NOT access the Internet with an Express extending an Extreme), I doubt that the Ethernet configuration was a factor. When I had my Express (n), I was using a Fast Ethernet Extreme, but now that I have two other Extremes, both with Gigabit Ethernet, I no longer have my Express (n), so I cannot test the theory; however, I am sure that others on this thread will be able to verify that they have a Gigabit Ethernet Extreme experiencing the same Internet access problem.

Having read through this thread several times, you probably already know that the workaround setup is an Extreme extending an Extreme, or an Express extending a Time Capsule. The best wireless mode for the extended network is 5 GHz n-only. Depending on which setup you choose, you will have an unused Express or an unused Extreme (assuming it is too late to return them), in which case you can connect that unused base via Ethernet to one of the bases in your extended network and use it to Create an offshoot 'b/g compatible' network for your 'g' wireless devices, whereby both networks will operate together as a single local network, even though one is 'n-only' and the other is 'b/g compatible' and they have different names.

Good luck with your setup.

May 23, 2008 9:46 AM in response to GARYsParries

I am experiencing the same issue. No internet access with extended network but everything seems OK with connectivity. If I move PC close to the extreme I am able to get to the web but as soon as I get behind the extended network nothing! My ISP is Comcast.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

May 23, 2008 10:11 AM in response to John Halston

John, welcome to the club. I'm sure you read the post just before yours, so you know your options. If you need any help, let us know. Good luck.

May 23, 2008 6:41 PM in response to GARYsParries

GARYs:

When I got home this afternoon I reset the Express thereby taking it off my network. I then opened Airport Utility and selected my Extreme N and turned WPA off. (I selected ""none"). I then switched over to the Express N network and, again using Airport Utility, went through the usual setup adding the Express N to my Extreme N network. I then opened Internet Connect from the Airport icon on the menu bar and noted that the base station ID to which I was connected was that of my Express N. I then opened Safari and (Lo And Behold!) I connected without a glitch. Mail opened, sent and received without a glitch.

So, it is NOT Comcast (which I don't have), but rather WPA either coming from the Express N or the Extreme N which is the problem. Considering that an Extreme N can extend an Extreme N without a problem (as you have done), it must be in the Express N.

I sure hope Apple is working on this, otherwise I am out a $100.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

May 24, 2008 4:40 AM in response to GARYsParries

Lary, good analysis, but it is not quite that simple. A few non Comcast users on this thread (with limited Internet access) were able to temporarily turn off their password security completely (i.e., not even WEP) to bypass the problem, but no Comcast users were able to do this, so the problem is different for Comcast users compared to other ISPs. Also, for Comcast users, while an Express cannot extend an Extreme, but another Extreme can, the Express can extend a Time Capsule, but an Extreme cannot, so the problem is not limited to any specific Airport base.

Based on the results posted on this thread, if I had to take a stab at categorizing this 'extend' problem, I would say that the newer model Expresses and TCs are compatible with each other, but incompatible with the older model Extremes (either Fast or Gigabit Ethernet), and the older model Extremes are compatible with each other, but incompatible with the newer model Expresses and TCs, and this incompatibility exists regardless of the firmware level of the bases or the type of password security used, but only for Comcast users. For (most) non Comcast users, there does not seem to be any compatibility issues between the older and newer model bases, but for some ISPs, password security (WEP or WPA) seems to prevent at least partial Internet access.

So, to me, it is not really clear what the problem is, and whether it is Apple's problem, or Comcast's problem, or both. 🙂

kfipp

Community Moderator

May 27, 2008 1:10 PM in response to GARYsParries

Gary,

I'm going to do my best to answer your question in a way that makes sense. Extending the range of an extreme with multiple 802.11n airports of any kind not using WDS works a little differently. When you set up WDS with 3 or more base stations you can set it up one of 2 ways. You can set it up where each express (for instance) is a "remote" that gets it's signal from the WDS main and then extends it out. These devices could be spread t not necessarily in a line and all within range of the main base station. Or, you can set it up where your express acts as a relay to the next remote (the straight line scenario for those that live in a bowling alley so to speak) with an extreme sending a signal to the first express (wds relay) that is set up to send a signal to the next express (WDS remote). The idea here is that for an express to extend the range it would have to reside within the signal of main or another relay.

Now if we were going to use the "extend the range" feature with multiple 802.11n devices there is no way to set it up in the straight line (main to relay to remote) scenario like WDS. Each 802.11n airport would have to be set up to extend the range of the main base station and within the range of the main. As far as i know there is no limit to the number of base stations in this network. You are really only limited in the placement of the devices in this network as far as i can tell. This is only what I have observed to be the case however I can't find any documented technical info to back this up. Hope that helps!

Jun 3, 2008 9:05 PM in response to Laryenth Lancaster

I'm suffering from the same issues as most here: I can't access the internet when my Airport Express is extending the network from the Airport Extreme in the 5 Ghz mode. It can do it OK in the a/b/g/n compatible mode.

I was able, at 5 Ghz, to see my home office network over in the office above the garage (where my cable & router is). I was able to transfer files to my file server just fine (quite fast, because of the higher throughput of the 5 Ghz mode). But not internet via the Express.

I tried removing the password/security as suggested here, and I was amazed: it worked! I'm able to connect at the 5 Ghz frequency -- & yes I've checked that that's what it is. Network Utility lists both the Extreme and the Express as clients.

Here's the FINAL corker: I'm on Comcast.

The downside: my Apple TV doesn't appear in iTunes, so I can't sync it to my MacBook Pro.

So the issue seems to me to be centered around the password/security settings. I'm in a rural area on about 5 acres, so I'm not in immediate danger of the hacking hordes, so I'll leave it unprotected for a while to see if there's an update to fix this issue.

But I wanted all to know that it really did work to remove the security settings. I really wanted the higher speed of the 5 Ghz frequency.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 4, 2008 7:39 PM in response to GARYsParries

Randy, thanks for your input. One note of caution, the Extreme and Express will show up as wireless clients of each other in Extend mode regardless of whether you are, or are not, able to access the Internet. In order to verify that your MacBook Pro is actually accessing the Internet through your Express, and not your Extreme, you need to either (1) use Airport Utility to check that your MacBook Pro is listed as a wireless client of the 'Express' while you are accessing the Internet (there are instructions for performing this check in a recent post above), or (2) turn off your MacBook Pro's internal Airport and then connect it to the Express via Ethernet.

If you are still able to access the Internet using Comcast, then more power to you, you are the first ... although I seem to recall one user 'temporarily' being able to do this, until it stopped working. 🙂

Jun 4, 2008 8:13 PM in response to GARYsParries

Gary -- yes, I am able to use the Express in 5 Ghz mode as an extender. Not only does the MB show up, but I use it in an area of the house that is 'dark' to the Extreme at 5Ghz. Without the Express as an extender there would be no signal to receive.

I'm going to conclude, based on this, that a major key to the problem is the use of passwords & encryption.

Apple? Are you listening.

Randy

PS: Why is it that Apple is always the Silent Presence on these forums? Sorta like God in the Church.

But I digress...

Jun 4, 2008 8:16 PM in response to GARYsParries

I forgot to mention (or re-emphasize) that my Apple TV can't/won't pick up the 5 Ghz signal. So if I want to use it, I have to switch to 2.4 'n' mode...

That's got to be another thread somewhere.

Randy

Jun 4, 2008 9:03 PM in response to Randy Green

Randy: I think you are correct in that it is WPA as the culprit, not Comcast. You can verify which base station you are linked to using the Airport "fan" icon on the menu bar. Use it to open Internet Connect and doing so will give you the SSID of the base station you are connected through. (See my earlier post).

I very much WOULD like Apple to take charge/ownership of this problem before my network gets invaded because I have no WPA...

LL

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 4, 2008 9:40 PM in response to GARYsParries

Randy, what Mac OS X version are your running? Also, could you please try one thing for me? While your MacBook is accessing the Internet, could you unplug your Express and verify that you no longer have Internet access? Thanks.

Lary, WPA might be the culprit, but only on Comcast. So what does that tell you?

This thread has been closed by the system or the community team. You may vote for any posts you find helpful, or search the Community for additional answers.

Comcast "traffic management" blocks Extend mode of AirPort Express 'n' ???