Troubles with electric pianos with MIDI in/outputs and Logic 8

Hi,
I have an old Roland 1700L electric piano from early nineties that has some MIDI ports on it's back and when I plug it into my computer to use it to play some of Logic's software instruments (via a small MIDI-USB hub), Logic (or GarageBand) reads it, but when I start to play, all sorts of problems pop up. For one, if I'm trying to play more than, say, 4 notes at once, the thing seems to go overbord and simply plays the notes on a loop. It sustains the note endlessly. That or it doesn't play at all, but the main difficulty is the sustain.
My reasoning was that this is a very old piano with very old MIDI ports, so the new complex software instruments from Logic are just too complicated for the piano to handle without it chugging and losing control.
This is the conclusion I've come to and I've decided I will probably sell this electric piano and buy a new (I would bring my Macbook Pro to the piano store and try it out on the piano I wish to buy to make sure it works). But before I do this, does anyone have any suggestions as to why this is happening?
This is the only piano that does this for me. I can run other electric pianos and MIDI controllers through Logic but this one here is the one in my home, and therefore most practical while recording.
Any help would be a appreciated.

I've tried around on other message boards around the internet and none were very kind or informative. Thank you in advance!

Message was edited by: Patrick Ford-Belisle

MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.4.11)

Posted on Apr 16, 2008 7:08 AM

Reply
12 replies

Apr 16, 2008 8:01 AM in response to Patrick Ford-Belisle

here's some info I found online at
http://www.practicalpc.co.uk/computing/sound/miditop5.htm

+''MIDI drone+
+Most users will have experienced the dreaded MIDI drone - a stuck note which switches on but doesn't switch off. It happens when a synth receives a Note On message but doesn't received a corresponding Note Off message. It can happen for a number of reasons.+

+If a synth receives more data than it can process - a situation commonly referred to as MIDI Clog or Choke - some instructions may be lost. If it's a Note Off message, a stuck note will result. If this is a repeatable problem with a synth, you're feeding it too much data. If there is a lot of Controller data at the stuck note point, try thinning it down. Most sequencers have a function to do his.+

+Variations on the above include trying to transmit more data than MIDI is capable of handling. The situation can often be eased by using an additional MIDI interface or a MIDI Thru box instead of daisy chaining instruments.+

+If you change MIDI channels during playback an instrument could receive a Note On message on one channel but then the channel is changed before the Note Off message is sent. Check your MIDI tracks for channel hopping.+

+Many sequencers have a Reset Devices command which will stop the drone but if it persists it needs to be cured at its source.''+

That sounds like my problem. The ''drone''. What would the fix be if it was that? ''If there is a lot of Controller data at the stuck note point, try thinning it down.''
If that was the problem, how would I do that?

Apr 16, 2008 8:37 AM in response to Patrick Ford-Belisle

Rather than trying to find random internet articles that might be related to general MIDI problems 🙂 , please do the troubleshooting process started here.

The first thing I suggested is to only connect the MIDI out, and see if you still get the same problem.

Try that, and post back the results. I suspect it will fix your issue, but if it doesn't then we can try the nest set of steps - but just do that one first, as that will help focus on what the issue is.

Apr 16, 2008 4:34 PM in response to Bee Jay

(this is a different account, but I'm the topic creator)

Okay, so I tried it with just the OUT plugged in (and I played around with other combinations as well to make sure) and I still have my problem. What it is exactly is:
- If I play enough notes, a very low UFO-like sound starts coming. by low I mean low on the register (it's fairly loud!) even if I'm only playing high notes, this will begin to happen after about 5 seconds of playing.
-there is a much bigger echo/reverb on the track/software instrument than there should be.
-If I play too many notes at once, or fast enough (ie: maybe four notes on a moderately fast arpeggio), it starts skipping notes. This is even more obvious if I'm playing chords with my right hand and bass notes with my left.
-These seem to be the only problems to arise on ''piano''-like software instruments, but on things like organs and strings (instruments that would let you sustain the note for very long if you keep holding the key down) there's also a problem of the note constantly playing. So eventually it's just a wall of noise.

I am using this to connect my piano to the computer:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Uno-main.html

Apr 16, 2008 4:54 PM in response to Patrick Ford-Belisle

Okay, so I tried it with just the OUT plugged in (and I played around with other combinations as well to make sure) and I still have my problem.


Ok, so that rules out a MIDI loop. Cool.

If I play enough notes, a very low UFO-like sound starts coming. by low I mean low on the register (it's fairly loud!) even if I'm only playing high notes, this will begin to happen after about 5 seconds of playing.


Weird...

Watch Logic's transport, where it indicates the MIDI IN and OUT - hold a key - do you see the note event register? Now release the key - do you see the note off event register?

Also, does this happen with Garageband? Load up similar software instruments and try in Garageband. if the problem is with the piano or the MIDI interface, you should get the same issue in GB. If it's happening in Logic, it should not occur in GB.

Apr 16, 2008 5:26 PM in response to Bee Jay

+Watch Logic's transport, where it indicates the MIDI IN and OUT - hold a key - do you see the note event register? Now release the key - do you see the note off event register?+

Yeah, the note off event registers. Even for the times when I'm using an Organ and the note keeps sustaining, the transport reads that I have let go off the key.

+Also, does this happen with Garageband? Load up similar software instruments and try in Garageband. if the problem is with the piano or the MIDI interface, you should get the same issue in GB. If it's happening in Logic, it should not occur in GB.+

Yes, the problem occurs in Garageband as well.

The piano is called Roland HP 1700L. I've looked around on the internet for information about it and because of it's age it's hard to find info.

By the way, thanks for all your help. Very nice of you! 🙂

Apr 16, 2008 10:48 PM in response to Patrick Ford-Belisle

Yes, the problem occurs in Garageband as well.


Ok, that rules out a Logic problem alone, and makes it look more like it's tied to either your piano or MIDI interfacing. When you've used other controller keyboards and you don't get the issue - were they tried on the same interface?

Is the driver for the MIDI interface a universal binary version?

In Logic, open the environment window, go to the click and ports layer, and insert a monitor object between the "SUM" camble output of the Physical Input object and the Sequencer Thru object, so you can see the MIDI data coming in. Play the keyboard - do you see any thing that strikes you as odd about the MIDI info the keyboard is sending out?

Ie when there's stuck notes, are note offs being missed anywhere that you can see?

Apr 18, 2008 6:57 AM in response to Bee Jay

Hi,

the driver is indeed a universal version. I doubt it's the MIDI interface simply because when I used it to connect a Roland Juno-D to the computer, it worked perfectly fine. This piano here is the only instance where I've had a problem.

I followed the steps you mentioned (I'm still fairly new at Logic so it took me a while to figure the environment window out!) and indeed I did notice something strange. Two things, actually:
1. Notes get ''stuck'' on the visual keyboard, some notes are still considered 'pressed' until I press them again. There aren't many but it's worth noting.
2. Which relates to that low warbly sound (which changes depending on the instrument I'm using -- ie: if I'm playing on a piano instrument, the low sound will sound like hitting the lowest note on the register (except even lower!), and if I was to be playing with a highly digitized sounding synth layer, the low warbly sound would sound very digitized and synthetic as well). ANYWAYS, when I've placed a monitor inside the environment at the places you mentioned, I can indeed see those odd low notes.
If I keep pressing a key at a decent rate, it'll register it fine.
ex:
1 C5 75
1 C5 OFF
etc..

but, if I was to press that key a lot faster, eventually, that low note will sound and it will also appear in the monitor, and it turns out it's more than just that note as well. I'll write you out an example of what it looks like when I'm simply pressing C5 at a fast rate over and over:

1 C5 67
1 C5 OFF
1 C5 65
1 C5 OFF
1 C5 77
1 C5 OFF
1 C5 68
*1 C-2 84*
*1 C-2 OFF*
1 C5 65
1 C5 OFF
*1 C-2 84*
*1 D5 OFF*
*1 C5 OFF*
*1 C5 88*
*1 C-2 84*
*1 A#4 OFF*
*1 C5 OFF*
etc..

So I see this is a pretty solid visualize representation of what I thought was wrong. Note the C-2 is lower than I can even reach on my standard sized piano (my lowest note is A-1).

Apr 18, 2008 7:24 AM in response to Patrick Ford-Belisle

he driver is indeed a universal version.


Cool.

I doubt it's the MIDI interface simply because when I used it to connect a Roland Juno-D to the computer, it worked perfectly fine.


Ok, cool. Rules that out 😉

Notes get ''stuck'' on the visual keyboard, some notes are still considered 'pressed' until I press them again. There aren't many but it's worth noting.


Is it always the same notes? For instance, if C3 will never give a note off, it might indicate a problem with the actual keyboard mechanism in the piano.

ANYWAYS, when I've placed a monitor inside the environment at the places you mentioned, I can indeed see those odd low notes.


So it seems like the piano is sending low notes as you play the keyboard...

So I see this is a pretty solid visualize representation of what I thought was wrong. Note the C-2 is lower than I can even reach on my standard sized piano (my lowest note is A-1).


It certainly seems as though the piano is sending spurious MIDI data, as I mentioned, it might be the actual physical keyboard mechanism is mistriggering. From the things you've tried, it certainly sems to be the actual piano that's playing up, and not the MIDI interface or computer.

At this stage, I'd probably try playing around with the piano's MIDI settings, trying a reset procedure if it has one. It might be something as simple as dirt and crud in the keyboard causing mistriggering.

While you could use the environment to filter out those C-2 notes, it's not really going to help if the piano is missing note offs and triggering wrong notes. It might, as you initially suspected, be knackered... 😟

Apr 24, 2008 10:17 AM in response to Bee Jay

thanks for all your help.
Yeah I've looked into it some more and still no solution. I will be selling it soon. Even though the MIDI is problematic, most people who want an electric piano like that might not mind, so I'll try selling it soon.
I'm thinking of getting the Korg SP-250. I know someone who uses it and it's got nice action on it.

thanks again for all your help

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Troubles with electric pianos with MIDI in/outputs and Logic 8

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