Bonsai With Pro Res

Question

Bonsai With Pro Res

Lately, I've been shooting HDV 1080i 60 footage with my V1U, and capturing it into FCP 6.0.2 using Pro Res. I then edit and render my timeline, and export the timeline directly into Compressor, using the Best Quality 2-pass DVD settings for whatever time limit I need. These files are imported into DVDSP, and I then produce SD DVDs.

This is all standard procedure, mentioned often in this and other forums. My SD DVDs have been looking OK, but not great. Especially not great on my Sony 60" SXRD TV, which shows every flaw. But, my customers have been happy, so maybe I'm picky.

Today, I decided to retry the now 2-year old Bonsai method (without the blur), with some modifications.

After editing (but NOT rendering) my Pro Res timeline, I created a new sequence. I used the (Matrox) MXO DV50 NTSC 48khz Anamorphic sequence preset, DVC PRO50 NTSC compression setting, lower field dominance, and used the Bonsai-recommended 'faster(linear)' motion filtering setting under the sequence settings video processing tab.

I copied my completed Pro Res sequence into this new timeline, and then exported it directly into Compressor as I've usually done. Used the stock 2-pass preset. After building and burning a DVD with the resulting files in DVDSP, I popped it into my DVD player, and watched it on the SXRD.

There was a huge difference; much improved in every way. Far less pixelation, jagged lines, motion artifacting, etc. I also played it on a Sony 36" CRT television, and the improvement was dramatic there, as well. I can't believe I hadn't tried this workflow before; it's a significant enough difference that I will be using this method from now on, or at least until something better comes along. standard DV footage.

I noticed that after Compressor has finished its encoding, the timeline will begin rendering, probably because Auto-Render is checked in preferences; this rendering seems to take a very long time, but it can be cancelled, since the compression has finished.

I'm looking forward to redoing a few earlier projects to see what improvement there will be.

One question, though, for those that have made it this far: I'm not familiar with DV50; what is the difference between it and the regular DV NTSC anamorphic settings? I'm planning on trying some samples using that setting to see if there is any difference in quality.

Mac Pro 2.66/12GB/X1900XT/Sonnet E4P/30"+23"ACDs, Mac OS X (10.5.2), 2 Sonnet Fusion 500Ps/14 WDRE2 500GB/Matrox MXO

Posted on May 2, 2008 8:34 PM

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Answer 1

Best reply

Brian Conner

Level 6

16,030 points

May 3, 2008 4:48 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

+One question, though, for those that have made it this far: I'm not familiar with DV50; what is the difference between it and the regular DV NTSC anamorphic settings?+

DV50 is twice the bandwidth and it's a 4:2:2 codec. That means red & blue (chroma) channels have twice the samples, resulting in smoother edges.

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Answer 2

2reverb

Level 3

600 points

May 3, 2008 5:01 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

Was this with 1080i 60 footage (transcoded to ProRes) Mike? I'm just finishing a project this weekend and would be interested in trying this method. I assume I have to have the MXO box to see the preset you describe? Thanks for the info.
--Bob

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Answer 3

May 3, 2008 5:35 AM in response to 2reverb

Yes, it was 1080i60, captured as Pro Res, but there is a DV50 NTSC 48khz anamorphic preset you can use built into FCP-you don't need the Matrox.

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Answer 4

May 3, 2008 5:38 AM in response to Brian Conner

So, Brian, if I'm seeing these improved results with DV50, there would be no point in trying the same thing with regular DV NTSC anamorphic?

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Answer 5

SSteele

Level 3

515 points

May 3, 2008 6:40 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

I'm glad you posted this. I am using the same ProRes workflow. I had been having trouble getting the quality of the footage like I wanted until I turned Frame Controls ON in Compressor, thanks to the response from this forum and especially Humanang. I am now very pleased with the quality with ProRes. So one question to you is in this DVCPRO50 workflow, do you have Frame Controls ON?

Another question is how long is the project you are doing this way? Now that I finally got the footage to look like I wanted, my 1hr 15min project starts stuttering/freezing about an hour into the DVD although it plays just fine in the timeline and on the computer in DVD Player using the VIDEO_TS file. After a whole day of troubleshooting, I still have one or two more options to try to solve it, but that's about it. Maybe this method will help.

Thanks again for sharing.

Message was edited by: SSteele

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Answer 6

May 3, 2008 7:02 AM in response to SSteele

I have not turned frame controls on; that's the next thing I want to try when I get time. I'm wondering if that will provide additional improvement, or if I just did that, and exported the Pro Res timeline directly into Compressor with frame controls on, would I see equal improvement to the DV50 method I'm using now?

The timeline I tried this with is 1 hr. 45 min. long, and although I didn't play it all the way through, I skipped around and checked various points from beginning to end and saw no problems.

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Answer 7

May 3, 2008 7:14 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

There is never 'no point' to running and analyzing tests, RJM. Either it garners noticeably better results or it doesn't. Afterwards, you'd know which it is.

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Answer 8

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

May 3, 2008 8:41 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

Red Jacket Mike wrote:
I have not turned frame controls on; that's the next thing I want to try when I get time. I'm wondering if that will provide additional improvement, or if I just did that, and exported the Pro Res timeline directly into Compressor with frame controls on, would I see equal improvement to the DV50 method I'm using now?

Feeding your ProRes material - either as a QT Movie or directly from FCP - into Compressor with Frame Controls turned on should produce better quality than the DVCPro50 method. The major reason is because Compressor's resizing/deinterlacing with Frame Controls on is +far superior+ to FCP's.

The default settings for Frame Controls will need to be adjusted, however. Resize defaults to Better, which is what you want, but you'll need to set Deinterlace to Better as well to make sure you don't get interlacing artifacts. Since you might be tempted to: do not initially set everything to Best, it will take forever (2x-3x as long) and produce only marginally better quality.

Of course, if the absolute best quality is needed - you've got very high-contrast edges, etc - export directly to Compressor +from an unrendered timeline+. Your encoding time will be substantial but quality will be just about the best that Final Cut Studio can provide.

Edited by Pepper Potts, at the request of Tony Stark.

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Answer 9

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

May 3, 2008 8:38 AM in response to SSteele

SSteele wrote:
Another question is how long is the project you are doing this way? Now that I finally got the footage to look like I wanted, my 1hr 15min project starts stuttering/freezing about an hour into the DVD although it plays just fine in the timeline and on the computer in DVD Player using the VIDEO_TS file. After a whole day of troubleshooting, I still have one or two more options to try to solve it, but that's about it. Maybe this method will help.

Either you've got a bad burn or a bit rate spike is causing your player to choke.

If you haven't burned a second disc for testing purposes (it's surprising how often that solves things 🙂 ), try lowering your encoding settings. Max should be no higher than 7.5, but your average rate might need to be dialed down.

What rates are you using?

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Answer 10

May 3, 2008 8:52 AM in response to hanumang

Thanks--this is exactly the info I was looking for. I will give these settings a try.

It seems that sometimes when exporting a timeline into Compressor, and checking the frame controls tab, I have seen that the Frame Controls are already on at their default settings, but everything is grayed out. To access and make changes, the radio button must be clicked. Other times, the default is off.

According to the Compressor manual, they should default to ON if the compression job involves reducing any kind of HD to SD.

Seeing them on, I guess I figured that was enough; I'll try modifying the settings now. Thanks again, and congrats on your level 4.

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Answer 11

SSteele

Level 3

515 points

May 3, 2008 9:10 AM in response to hanumang

I've burned about a dozen different combinations, most VBR avg bit rate 6.5, max 7.6. Tried direct from timeline, non-self-contained .mov as well as with a self-contained .mov. Last try was with a CBR of 6.5. That one froze less, but still had some choking. Instead of all one long file, tried making the ceremony one file and the reception a second file and in DVDSP had the ceremony jump to the reception, thinking the length of the file may have been the problem. That didn't do it.
My disks are less than half full. Application on the boot drive. Project and media files are on physically different internal drives. Have played on 2 different DVD players. These players have never given me problem before--both Sony. Always use Taiyo Yuden media, but tried a different batch of Taiyo Yuden. Same thing. I am so close and think it has to be something so simple, kind of like the frame controls suggestion you gave me. Never had any problem with DV.
Appreciate your comments.

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Answer 12

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

May 3, 2008 9:35 AM in response to SSteele

Well, you could be the victim of a bad batch of Tayo Yuiden media.

Given what you've mentioned though, I'd advise lowering your bit rates to 5.5 Average, 7.5 max as it seems to be an issue with a data rate spike (choking your player) more than media incompability.

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Answer 13

May 3, 2008 9:36 AM in response to hanumang

One more quick question on this--since my original sequence is HDV/ProRes, and I'm going to SD DVD with it, should I also change field dominance in the 'Output Fields' tab of Frame Controls in Compressor?

The original sequence would've been Upper, the compressed file should be Lower. I've not done this before; it seemed to be automatically set as part of the 'Best Quality DVD' setting. But now, I'm not sure.

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Answer 14

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

May 3, 2008 9:40 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

Yes, Frame Controls should be On by default when going HD to SD but it's the deinterlacing setting that makes all the difference with interlaced material.

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Answer 15

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

May 3, 2008 9:45 AM in response to Red Jacket Mike

Actually, and I mention this since you seem to have gotten contrary info, MPEG-2 files for DVD can be either upper or lower field dominant.

For the most part, leaving it same as source should work fine. Of course, HDV changes a lot of the rules in the post workflow. Let us know if you're not satisfied with that output...

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