Can't boot into safe mode - PC keyboard

Question

Can't boot into safe mode - PC keyboard

My Mini can't log in. I know why -- and even how to fix it -- but I'm unable to boot into any alternate state to make the fix.

The situation: PC keyboard (AOpen 90.00029.UB1) and a Logitech 4-button mouse, both USB native; also tried Dell PS/2 keyboard with a USB adapter. VGA adapter is connected to analog LCD. Away from home; do not have OS X install DVDs with me. LoginWindow.plist is fatally borked, but I can't get at it to undo the damage.

Symptoms: Mini will not respond to ANY keyboard actions during boot. Cmd-s, Cmd-v, Shift, Cmd-Opt-p-r, Cmd-Opt-o-f, or even C to boot from CD (I have a PPC Ubuntu live CD, never tested prior to this disaster). No feedback to indicate anything is happening.

If it means anything, I have the startup chime turned off by a third-party utility. Much too loud for my household.

Anyway, the sequence of events is ALWAYS the same:

* Power on
* No video (not just black -- no signal)
* CD noises
* With actual disc in drive, CD spin-up
* Still no video
* CD slows slightly (if disc in drive)
* First video activity: gray logo screen
* Spinning gear thing
* Black screen
* "Starting Mac OS X" (sometimes only a brief flash)
* Stops at blue screen with mouse cursor, no Finder

The Mini will only respond to: (1) power button on/off; (2) power-on-and-hold to go into that firmware update mode -- get scary loud tone, flashing LED, then above sequence as usual; and (3) mouse-down to eject CD. Oh, and I can move the mouse pointer around when I get to the blue screen. Yay.

For the past 24 hours I have been searching the net for ANY indication that a PC keyboard is capable/incapable of inducing Safe Mode (or any other mode). Can't find a firm Yes or No, or even a Sometimes/Maybe.

Wondering if keys are mapped differently on PC keyboards -- maybe Shift isn't really Shift as far as Mac ROM is concerned, so no Safe Mode? Tried other random key combos to no avail. Can't find a "rosetta stone" for USB keyboard signalling on net to prove/disprove theory.

First Mac, no points of reference. Hopelessly lost.

Help.

Randall

Posted on Sep 12, 2005 9:54 PM

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Answer 1

Sep 13, 2005 1:08 AM in response to Randall Blank

Randall,

Welcome to Apple Discussions.

I've replicated your problem on an iMac G3. I only tried one particular Windows keyboard, so I can't say if it was a problem with only a few Windows keyboards or whether it was a Mac problem.

I just ended up plugging in my Apple keyboard to fix it. I'm sorry you don't have one. I thought Apple would have taken care of this by now because of the fact that they market this machine as being a "switcher" Mac.

As far as I know, there is pretty much nothing you can do without an Apple keyboard. It's stupid I know.

There aren't any Apple stores or Mac resellers in your area that can help you?

Brian

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Answer 2

AndyO

Level 6

17,064 points

Sep 13, 2005 6:02 AM in response to Randall Blank

Randall,

It's frustrating that Macs typically haven't worked fully with all PC keyboards - the only one I found that allowed the various startup key modifiers was a Logitech model. Even my older Apple keyboard is limited to the 'option' key modifier so I have to swap in a newer Apple USB keyboard if I need to boot to CD or into single user mode etc. Thus unfortunately you are likely to need an Apple (or fully Apple compatible) keyboard.

Since you don't have one, and if you don't have a local Apple store or Apple reseller in the area who should be able to help you, there may be a local Mac User Group you can contact to see if you can get one of the memers to assist - or even a local school. You may also be able to find someone in the various Mac forums in the same general area who would be happy to help.

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Answer 3

Sep 13, 2005 6:31 AM in response to AndyO

OK, at least now I know it's not just some freaky occurrence with my Mini.

Apple should really address this issue, given the Mini's apparent target audience -- PC users who take the BYODKM thing seriously.

Even if it was just an acknowledgement in the FAQ here.

I'll see what I can do to get my hands on an Apple keyboard -- that's been at the back of my mind as a last resort (I'm way too stubborn to give up hope of finding a workaround).

And incidentally, which Logitech keyboard was it?

Thanks,

Randall

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Answer 4

Sep 13, 2005 6:35 AM in response to AndyO

Well, at least now I know it's not just some freaky occurrence with my Mini.

Apple should really address this issue, even if it was just an acknowledgment in the FAQ here.

I'll see what I can do to get my hands on an Apple keyboard -- that's been at the back of my mind as a last resort (I'm way too stubborn to give up hope of finding a workaround).

And incidentally, which Logitech keyboard was that, Andy?

Thanks to both of you,

Randall

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Answer 5

AndyO

Level 6

17,064 points

Sep 13, 2005 10:22 AM in response to Randall Blank

No problem with the double post - it happens to us all! If you spot such an issue (or a spelling mistake etc) soon after you post, you can delete or edit your message (by clicking on the trash can or pencil icon respectively at the top of the popsted message) - but it's nothing to worry about.

It was a Logitech Internet keyboard. The grey one with a scroll wheel at the left-hand end and a row of buttons along the top. No Apple key markings like some keyboards, but the Mac recognized the startup key options. Unfortunately not a particularly robust keyboard!

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Answer 6

Sep 13, 2005 12:13 PM in response to AndyO

Talked to Apple tech support. The rep says a PC keyboard SHOULD let me boot into safe mode or from CD, but given my rousing lack of success so far he pretty much agreed that an Apple keyboard is my only hope.

Either that or do an Archive and Install. Ayeesh.

I hope someone with the resources to do so will investigate this keyboard compatibility issue. I can't be the only Mac newb to royally bork my Mini...

FWIW, the AOpen keyboard works great in OS X. You can even use the Power button to bring up the OS X shutdown dialog. But it won't turn the machine on, for reasons that are becoming all too clear.

Randall

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Answer 7

AndyO

Level 6

17,064 points

Sep 13, 2005 12:56 PM in response to Randall Blank

For information, it's not been possible to use the power button on any keyboard (Mac or PC) to turn on a Mac build later than 2000 or 2001. I can turn my 1999-vintage G4 on and off with the power button on my keyboard, but not my G4 iMac, MDD Mac, G5 etc.

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Answer 8

Sep 13, 2005 3:05 PM in response to AndyO

No kidding. Well, the last Mac I used was probably a 68K machine running System 7. Gotta expect a few changes along the way. <G>

Anyway, I'm off to a local Apple dealer to see what my options are. (I'm hoping they don't close at 5:00.) The closest Apple Store is, well, not so close.

Randall

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Answer 9

Sep 17, 2005 5:23 AM in response to Randall Blank

Final results are in. I ordered an Apple keyboard from Amazon, plugged it into the Mini tonight and wonder of wonders, I could get into Safe Mode, Single User Mode, Pie à la Mode, you name it. Microsoft and Apple clearly have different ideas about USB keyboards at the hardware level. (And just for the record, the Mac keyboard won't get me into my PC's BIOS either.)

Fixing the login problem took considerably longer, but that's because I overlooked the obvious and wasted a lot of time on generic boot troubleshooting: If you got yourself into trouble with defaults write, a little reading of the Man pages will lead you to defaults delete.

Things go much smoother when you have a well defined target.

Anyway, anyone out there with a Mini and a PC keyboard, do the Safe Boot test now. If it ain't working, do yourself a favor and get a Mac keyboard.

Thanks for all the help.

Randall

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Answer 10

Sep 18, 2005 1:16 AM in response to Randall Blank

<q>Anyway, anyone out there with a Mini and a PC keyboard, do the Safe Boot test now. If it ain't working, do yourself a favor and get a Mac keyboard.</q>

That is a useful tip!

Good to hear you're up & running again.

JJ

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Answer 11

Sep 18, 2005 4:06 PM in response to Randall Blank

"And just for the record, the Mac keyboard won't get me into my PC's BIOS either."

I should ammend that to read "it wouldn't let me into the Dell Dimension 4100 BIOS," which is accessed through F2. My old Pentium III Dell at home uses (forward) Delete, and that got me into the BIOS with no trouble at all. So BIOS compatbility with a Mac keyboard may vary.

Hitting F8 for Windows Safe Mode also works, possibly because it's based in software instead of firmware.

Randall

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Answer 12

Sep 13, 2005 8:59 AM in response to Randall Blank

Arg, sorry about the double post. The second one was just a draft -- not sure how it got posted. Still a little shaky on using the forums here.

Randall

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Answer 13

AxL

Level 6

11,441 points

Sep 18, 2005 3:56 AM in response to Randall Blank

If you finally have to buy another keyboard for you Mini,
consider this USB 2.0 Keyboard...

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