Level 2

345 points

Logic still plagued by serious region start/end adjust and crossfade bugs

Wow... it had been a while since I used Logic for serious audio editing (I primarily use it for composing, and for virtual instruments/effects/mixing onstage)... what an amazingly frustrating experience.

I spent all day today using Logic to overdub album tracks, using autopunch extensively. The tracking went fairly smoothly, but the simple task of fine-tuning the edit points and crossfading turned into a nightmare:

1) The Region-Disappearing Bug: when there are two audio regions touching, and I extend the length of the left region over the right region (with "no overlap" set), sometimes this works just as at should. But sometimes the right region simply disappears. The solution is to use Undo, then try again... sometimes I had to move the transition point five or six times, with the right region disappearing every time, until suddenly it worked.

2) The Region-Jumping Bug: same scenario: two audio regions touching, but not overlapping. Extend one of the regions to move the transition point, and sometimes the right region jumps slightly in time (not a large amount, but enough that it's visible when zoomed-in... maybe 50 samples or so). Same solution: Undo, then try again (or use "Move audio to original record position," then try again). Same deal... sometimes I performed the same edit five or six times in a row before it suddenly and inexplicably worked.

3) The Crossfade-Doesn't-Work Bug: self-explanatory... sometimes, two regions simply won't crossfade... no explanation. Trying this over and over doesn't tend to solve the problem. When this happens, the only way I've found to solve the problem is to remove the surrounding crossfades (the fades on the other sides of the regions I'm trying to fade), then recreate all three crossfades. That usually works, although sometimes it takes several tries.

4) The Crossfade-Causes-Region-To-Disappear-Or-Jump Bug: this is a combination of crossfading and bugs #1 and #2 above... performing a crossfade sometimes causes the same problems as moving an edit point: the region to the right sometimes disappears or jumps around in time.

I really want to believe that Logic is ready to compete in the world of professional audio, but the occasional times that I've tried to use it for serious production work, I've been shocked by these editing bugs. I love writing in Logic, and it continues to work flawlessly running plug-ins live on stage, but my experience has ben that these audio editing bugs currently render it essentially useless for production work, especially when clients are watching...

Does anyone have any advice on how to avoid these bugs ? Is it possible that upgrading to OS 10.5 would solve any of these problems ? I've avoided upgrading so far because of the unfavorable reports posted on this forum.

Thanks for any advice!

James

MacPro 2.66, MacBook 2GHz, Mac OS X (10.4.11), Logic 7.2.3, 8.0.1

Posted on May 8, 2008 9:04 PM

43 replies

Pancenter

Level 6

14,788 points

May 12, 2008 11:36 PM in response to Community User

Well guess what, there are other professionals online who've been working many many years with Logic and other software as well. I've used Logic since it was MIDI only. Believe me, yours is not the final word. I would never use Logic for post work, there's at least two other programs that I prefer given the choice.

You only use a limited number of features as most of us do... there are bugs, and some have been there since version 3.

You must learn that not everyone uses the program the way you do and that others are finding bugs and problems in areas you're not familiar with. It's disrespectful to assume that everyone should work as you do.

All you have to do is read this board and a couple of others to realize there's some very real (non user based) problems going on. Logic is a wonderful tool, but it's not perfect, neither is it the only tool available for the job.

pancenter-

May 13, 2008 6:39 AM in response to Community User

fermusic wrote:
I remaind you that the region crossfade function is NOT a destructive editing...
so,
cannot be compared with protools function because protooòs do a destructive editing...

PT writes fade files to disk, but it's not destructive. The original audio files are left untouched. And at any point you can remove the crossfades or change them.

on the manual there are many things that do not work as described, but this happen in every high-tech software!!!

I don't expect an app like Logic to be 100% bug free. But I do expect the basics to work, there's no excuse for things like crossfades not to work consistently.

I repeat that I work every day in professional studio with Logic.... from many many Years....
I always can do and I was been able to do everythings with Logic!

The problem is not that logic can't do certain things, it's that some of the features don't work right so you have to do those things using cumbersome workarounds. Even you admit that there are many things that are broken.

May 13, 2008 9:56 AM in response to Mike Connelly

Mike Connelly wrote:
Wow, what an insulting (and clueless) post. "There are no editing bugs"????

Sorry for that .. but this is my opinion... and i don't think to insulting anybody.

I'm also a Protools user and I know how its works....
I just prefer Logic...
it is very easy to make a stable software because digidesigne works only with proprietary hardware...

I don't like this kind of policy and PT comes with serious limitation about Virtual instruments... and it is always not compatibile with last OS X version!

Logic is a very stable usable proffessional DAWs....
it is only a 8.0.1 version and it comes with great advanced features!

There are no sampler editor bugs editing bugs in logic... (logic works in a different way) and the little bugs are not so important...
you can obtain the same crossfade region features by using one of the many other functionality that makes you able to do everyhing that you need.

G

jnashguitar Author

Level 2

345 points

May 13, 2008 10:46 AM in response to octopi

Amazingly, I think this discussion has reached unanimous agreement:

1) Logic has editing bugs.

2) Some of us find those bugs distracting to the creation process and an embarrassment in front of clients.

3) Some of us don't care.

That about sums it up, I think... 🙂

Hey, I'm just glad to know it's not just my system... thanks for weighing in, folks!

James

jnashguitar Author

Level 2

345 points

May 13, 2008 11:05 AM in response to Community User

As a result of this discussion, I thought I'd try to get with the times and work in the style recommended by the Logic manual.

In the past, I have used only the "replace" record feature, but I thought I'd give the automatic take folders a try.

Supposedly, you turn off "replace" record, and all your recordings on a track are put in a takes folder, and Logic automatically generates a "comp" to reflect the current state of the track. From there, you can go in and swipe different takes to change things around after the fact if you want.

My experience... serious bugs.

I've done this four times now (for actual work... simple tests worked initially), each time recording a number of takes, both full and partial, using auto-drop here and there, and at some point, the automatic comp gets changed for no reason. i.e. I'll do one take, then punch in halfway through for a second, don't like it, so try again on a third take, and my comp will look like this:

<--------take 1------><-------take 3------>

Then I'll punch in at the end (autodrop) like this:

<--------take 1------><-------take 3-><----take 4--->

But, when I listen back, it doesn't sound right. So, I open up the take folder, and I see:

<--------take 2------><-------take 1-><----take 4--->

The edit points are in the same spots, but the takes have flipped around. For no explanation.

Of course, all the takes are still there in the folder, so I can go through and swipe the correct ones to fix it, but it means I can't trust this feature... it tends to screw up work that I already consider DONE... bummer.

Get it's back to "replace" record (aka the "ProTools Way")

James

dbboy

Level 1

0 points

May 13, 2008 2:08 PM in response to jnashguitar

It is indeed unfortunate that these serious bugs exist and are seemingly ignored by the coders. Part of the problem is that many of the "experts" who chime in here never seem to experience these problems! I think Apple is listening to people who never use these common features and therefore never experience these very frustrating bugs. I say take a Logic developer, put him in a real studio situation for one hour and we might get some results.

May 14, 2008 4:33 AM in response to jnashguitar

I always avoid to use "Takes and Comp folders" for now....
I use Logic from version 3 and previous... (I was a Notator user)

Logic 8.0.1 comes with new features that are not necessary for me... because I know how to use old logic version without any limitation.

There are many new features that are arrived with version 8:
1) Stretching region features
2) the new arrange windows interface
3) the Soundtrack Pro adding adding editing features
and the many others great implementation like as Sample based editing, new grat compressors, EQ, and great channel streap new preset...

There are "milions" of good new features...

Just I take the good ones and I discard the BAD ones... 🙂

I made many professional musical products with logic from 15 Years until now and all the bugs of this 8.0.1 version are not such as to prevent to produce my songs in a professional way,

I'm sure that all bugs will be fixed in the future... but i'm also sure that some new guest-bug arrives .....and always has been so, each innovation brings many improvements and some new inconvenience 😉

May 14, 2008 4:55 AM in response to Mike Connelly

I use crossfade function when needed (specialy for electric or acoustc bass line, when some note is not in perfect beat timing or some click/pops happen in the crossing regions)

it works fine and you can use the region menu that contains many helpful to obtain the professional result

don't forget to use stretching region function... because this feature is strictly related to obtain a professional crossfade editing.

( I Think there are not so important bugs in the crossfade function )

Thanks

G

May 14, 2008 5:42 AM in response to jnashguitar

jnashguitar wrote:
1) Logic has editing bugs.

I never got any serious editing bug

2) Some of us find those bugs distracting to the creation process and an embarrassment in front of clients.

I never been distracting from crossfade bugs and i have notice that the digidesigne hardware add a little ammount of DC offset, that require a massive use of crossfade fuction.

With my Motu device a don't need to use crossfade too much... only for bass frequencies... and only rarely
but, in any case, my clients never see any problem from Logic bugs (because there is a way to avoid that.... just KNOW how Logic (4/5/6 and later versions) works

3) Some of us don't care.

No, I'm not the one!

That about sums it up, I think... 🙂

Hey, I'm just glad to know it's not just my system... thanks for weighing in, folks!

... yeah... in my experience all the user that comes from PT claim this problem..
I'm not one of that 🙂

There are about 2 or 3 different function for obtain the same result about crossfades regions... if you use the Logic 5 way you never will be embarrassed in front of any of your clients....

if you need help feel free to email me 🙂

G

all pictures are related with the issue

May 14, 2008 7:37 AM in response to Community User

fermusic wrote:

jnashguitar wrote:
1) Logic has editing bugs.

I never got any serious editing bug

You've already admitted that there ARE bugs, we all seem to agree on that:

fermusic wrote:
there are many things that do not work as described

We get that you don't think they are "serious" and that you are able to work around them. You don't need to keep telling us that over and over. Nor do you need to keep insisting that people complaining about bugs are only doing it because of previous experience with other apps.

The rest of us just don't agree that it's OK for the app to have problems with such basic features that never get fixed.

The crossfade tool seems OK so far from what I've tried as long as logic is set to "no overlap", so that does work around some of the problems although I find that method to be a bit more cumbersome.

But it doesn't help others, such as copying a region not copying the fadeout on that region - fermusic, do you have a workaround for that?

And worst of all, Logic will create crossfades randomly on its own just from copying regions on the same track with drag set to crossfade.

From trying various things out, it looks like the "crossfade" drag setting is the source of many problems. Overlap seems like it might be better but no overlap looks like it might be the safest to use, although if a track has already been edited with xfade, bugs still appear with the overlap and no overlap settings.

I find it pretty amazing how easily problems show up doing such simple and common things, it's bewildering why apple doesn't just make the effort to fix these bugs.

jnashguitar Author

Level 2

345 points

May 14, 2008 10:48 AM in response to Community User

fermusic wrote:
I use crossfade function when needed (specialy for electric or acoustc bass line, when some note is not in perfect beat timing or some click/pops happen in the crossing regions)

This example shows essentially a manually-created loop with identical length regions and crossfades. I've never had problems with Logic when doing something like this.

But, what I do more commonly is what I did last night: compositing and punching-in, ending up with a track of many regions that need to be finely-edited and crossfaded. I tried this process again last night using the "Junction" tool, and I found that it's buggy, too... I haven't experienced the "jumping region" bug, but

1) The Region-Disappearing Bug: when there are two audio regions touching, and I extend the length of the left region over the right region (with "no overlap" set), sometimes this works just as at should. But sometimes the right region simply disappears. The solution is to use Undo, then try again... sometimes I had to move the transition point five or six times, with the right region disappearing every time, until suddenly it worked.

... this bug appears identically when using either the "Junction" tool or the "Length edit" tool. It is tremendously frustrating, because I'll be zoomed in fine-tuning a transition between regions, put in a crossfade, then zoom-out only to see the next region to the right disappeared many steps ago, requiring careful backtracking through the undo history. This must have happened a half-dozen times or more when I was editing last night...

I, too, dislike Digidesign's hardware policies, and there are many, many things about Logic I think are great. But day-to-day audio editing like this worked flawlessly for me ten years ago when I first started using ProTools, and it's still buggy in Logic. I'm glad that you're getting professional results with Logic, fermusic! I'm getting professional results, too. But the job should be easier... the results can still be professional, but IMO it's not "professional" to have to work around glaring bugs.

James
james@nashvillain.com

jnashguitar Author

Level 2

345 points

May 14, 2008 10:50 AM in response to Community User

There are many new features that are arrived with version 8:
1) Stretching region features

I'm glad Logic added this, but in the world of digital audio, this is old news. ProTools has had this function for at least ten years.

Take folders and swipe comping are one of the truly innovative features that Logic has introduced. Pity they're so buggy...

James

May 14, 2008 1:12 PM in response to Mike Connelly

Mike Connelly wrote:

The rest of us just don't agree that it's OK for the app to have problems with such basic features that never get fixed.

Are you talking about new Logic 8 crossfade function or logic 5 crossfade???
if yes I suggest to forget Logic 8 manual....
I use logic like the previous version.. and i never get any bug...
(all bugs comes with some new features... only... just like the ridicolous comp-take/folder-punch-in implementation that it is really bad... and it needs to be fixed for first)

I don't have any problem to work with Logic 8!

The crossfade tool seems OK so far from what I've tried as long as logic is set to "no overlap", so that does work around some of the problems although I find that method to be a bit more cumbersome.

I remaind you that we are talking about a no-destructive crossfade function

can you tell me what are the other DAWs that comes with no-destructive crossfade function???
This is another of the great unique features of Logic.... (you just correct me about PT crossfades) 🙂

But it doesn't help others, such as copying a region not copying the fadeout on that region - fermusic, do you have a workaround for that?

When I do a crossfade editing, I always make no overlap function because I know how Logic 4.x and 5.x works...

you must have a perfect regions settings with no overlaps before using the no-destructive function

And worst of all, Logic will create crossfades randomly on its own just from copying regions on the same track with drag set to crossfade.

as you can see in my screenshot I just make a copy (for you 😉 ) of the four regions AFTER the crossfades editing

I cannot find any bugs in this features!

... this seems to be like the SOLO bugs...
many users claims about "solo" bug.... ( but i yhink all of that comes from a switching from PT or CB... because now logic is not XSkey protected 😉
I use logic from the beginning... i use all other DAWs tooo...
I prefer Logic! 🙂 🙂 🙂

but : THERE ARE NO SOLO BUGS in Logic

( I suggest to search for an Emagic manual)

G

May 14, 2008 1:22 PM in response to Community User

fermusic wrote:
I use logic like the previous version.. and i never get any bug...

You keep beating this dead horse. Let it go already.

fermusic wrote:
can you tell me what are the other DAWs that comes with no-destructive crossfade function???
This is another of the great unique features of Logic.... (you just correct me about PT crossfades) 🙂

I'm not sure what you mean. PT does have non destructive crossfades. As does soundtrack pro (where they work a million times better than the ones in Logic, go take a look at them) At this point I suspect virtually every DAW has non destructive crossfades, are there any that don't?

When I do a crossfade editing, I always make no overlap function because I know how Logic 4.x and 5.x works...

So...it's broken when you have drag set to xfade...and you don't have a fix? That's what I thought. Apple needs to make xfade work if they're going to include that feature in the app. And users shouldn't need to know how the app worked FOUR versions ago, that's ridiculous.

as you can see in my screenshot I just make a copy (for you 😉 ) of the four regions AFTER the crossfades editing

I'm not talking about crossfades, I'm talking about option-dragging a region with a fadeout. And I'm talking about doing it in xfade mode, which your screenshot shows it is not. I guess you agree with me that the xfade mode is pretty much useless because of all the bugs?

I cannot find any bugs in this features!

That's because you're not in xfade mode. In xfade mode, when you copy a region with fadein/fadeout, do both the copy and original still have both fades?

May 14, 2008 1:24 PM in response to jnashguitar

James, which mode do you have the drag option set to? Are you using no overlap or xfade?

From what I've seen, it looks like xfade is extremely buggy while the others seem better. And unfortunately, it looks like if you create some crossfades by overlapping, it screws up the track, and those bugs will be present regardless of what mode you are in.

This thread has been closed by the system or the community team. You may vote for any posts you find helpful, or search the Community for additional answers.

Logic still plagued by serious region start/end adjust and crossfade bugs