Windows and firewire audio interfaces

I have a new MBP I'm getting set up with windows, and everything has gone fine but I'm stuck trying to get my Presonus Firebox audio interface to work. I've been poking around and it seems to be a pretty wide spread problem, so I thought I would consolidate some information and hopefully get a few recommendations.

My basic problem is that the Firebox seems to install fine, but is not useable by any application (ASIO reports the error "No sound device is connected to the PC." when selecting the Firebox). I've done the usual tests, and the device works fine in OS X, in Windows on different computers, etc. Only issue is in Windows running under boot camp.

The problem doesn't seem confined to a specific windows version (personally tried XP SP2 and SP3, seen reports of Vista).

The problem doesn't seem confined to a specific audio interface. In addition to my Firebox, I've seen reports for
Edirol FA-101
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1528317&tstart=0
Presonus Firestudio
M-Audio ProFire 26
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7254908&#7254908
Tascam Fw1082
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7274776&#7274776

The problem does not seem to be about the firewire chipset (I've seen reports of problems with some chipsets, but my MBP is several days old with the TI chipset, which as far as I know has no known problems).

The primary app I use that's critical needs ASIO drivers, so I installed ASIO4ALL and that works fine -- it's not a long-term solution, but I can run with it for a little while. Right now I'm primarily interested in understanding what the variables are, i.e., are there any interfaces known to work with my config of hardware, or is there anyone using my config that's running one of these 'problem' interfaces without problems? I've got the 15" MBP at 2.6, with 4 GB of main memory and 512 MB of video.

thanks much,
eric

MacBook Pro, Windows XP, Nvidia 8600M GT, TI firewire chipset, 4 GB main, 512 MB video

Posted on Jun 1, 2008 11:44 AM

Reply
15 replies

Jun 10, 2008 10:20 AM in response to exh

My fix was to return my Alesis iO26 and buy a MOTU Traveler. Be sure to install the drivers before connection the FW cable. If you experience any problems with Boot Camp not seeing the Audio Interface, go into the Device Manager, Click on Ieee 1394 Bus Host Controller and disable, then enable the controller. Then disable the wireless transceiver and blue tooth via Device Manager.Everything should be fine after that.

Jul 3, 2008 8:41 AM in response to Richard Van Nostrand

Thanks much Richard -- I'll follow up on this a little. MOTU doesn't have any devices in the price range I was looking at, so I ended up going to a friendly dealer where they let me pull all the boxes off the shelf and install things until something worked. Ended up being pretty quick, the short of it is, Focusrite Saffire didn't work, a cheap little thing from Tascam did:

http://www.audiomidi.com/FireOne---Firewire-Interface-P9061.aspx

(as a very brief review, it's quality is... eh... pretty far behind all of my previous devices, an 828mkII, a presonus firebox, and a mackie onyx 400f, but at least it works)

So yes, this confirmed for me that it is in fact an issue with manufacturer's device drivers, and not some inherent problem in the system. In light of this I have a small suggestion for other people going through this: There's a company called CEntrance that makes a substitute driver for firewire devices, the Ideal Driver:
http://www.centrance.com/products/id/
(you need to check the compatibility chart to make sure your device is supported)
I desperately wanted to try this to see if it would work, and I had some contact with a nice fellow there, but after explaining the issue, twice I asked point blank if I'd get a refund if it didn't work and he just didn't reply. Don't know what the deal was, but it left me minorly irked so I didn't take the US$40 plunge to find out. If someone else does, I'd be curious to know if this resolves the issue.

In addition to Richard's comments about disabling wireless, there's one other thing I've found was necessary: Turning off KbdMgr. This is a program that enables 'extended keyboard' functions, such as the keys that let you brighten or dim the screen. It doesn't affect basic keyboard support, so it can be safely disabled, and in fact it will cause CPU spikes and audio dropouts, so I think disabling is a must. Do this by pressing the windows Start button, choosing Run..., and entering msconfig.exe. When the System Configuration Utility comes up, click the start tab and uncheck KbdMgr.

thanks,
eric

Jul 3, 2008 11:48 AM in response to exh

I have the same problem with my M-Audio Firewire 1814, it installs fine but does not sound. I asked M-Audio and got a clarification, many devices working under Windows require to access the BIOS which is not accessible on Intel based Mac, as they say. Perhaps Apple knows how but it doesn't seem to be a priority for them to enstablish a collaboration.

Jul 4, 2008 4:49 PM in response to exh

Hi- Yes, I forgot to mention disabling the extended keyboard functions via KbdMgr. There have been complaints here that when playing back audio, there are occasional pops and cracklings. So far, the cludges that we mentioned have alleviated this problem for me. Also please have some sympathy for the Apple programmers. Currently, BootCamp is Apple's substitute for the PC BIOS. It must be a real challenge for them to come up with drivers that reflect all the Firewire boxes out there. They have done a great job on the Mac side working with all the manufacturers but the PC/Mac interface is still iffy. I think most of the driver problems are on the hardware manufacturers side, as they have to play by Apple's rules and sometimes they don't. It's still amazing to me that I can run Windows XP Pro SP3 on my little Macbook and it runs faster than my desktop PC with basically the same configuration. Go Apple!

How do you like that Tascam unit? I suspect that it would work great with GarageBand. I looked at it but needed more inputs and a LightPipe interface so I went with the MOTU Traveler after selling my car and house to buy it 🙂. The Traveler is just a mini 828MkII and it is oh so good!

Jul 6, 2008 5:52 PM in response to flx123

Somehow I don't believe that M-Audio problems are because they have to access a real PC-type BIOS. I rather suspect that their drivers are the culprit. If MOTU- who has been a stanch Mac platform equipment manufacturer for years can make a rock solid driver for the MOTU Firewire Traveler, then M-Audio should also be able to do the same. This is also strange to me because M-Audio has worked closely with Apple for the last few years to market their gear. I still think that the code in Boot Camp may be re-worked to solve some of these problems, but that is pure speculation. The fact that so many of these DAW's work fine when booting up in Apple mode should be a big red flag that somewhere, something is rotten in Denmark. Also, the RealTek drivers for the onboard chipset could be causing some of this. There is a known problem with the RealTec driver that causes 25 or so foreign language files to be re-generated every time the RealTec software is accessed. Go look in your "+C:\Documents and Settings\YourUserName\Local Settings\Temp.+" This is not just in the MacBook (I don't know about the Macbook Pro) but also in the Dell Laptops. Lets hope that the next round of upgrades can solve our problems.

Jul 7, 2008 4:27 AM in response to drifter7508

I would like to share my thoughts on these issues.

I've had serious crackling/popping problems with my Echo Audiofire2 connected to my 2007 santa rosa MBP running Vista32 as well. However, I have actually been able to improve the situation drastically by just following a few simple steps that I learned from this very useful thread:
http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=591

First of all, download the following tool, which helps you to analyze the latency of your system. Low latency is critical for audio applications running with small buffers:
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

When you run this tool for some time, you can probably see sudden spikes of high latencies. These may cause crackling/popping and must therefore be eliminated. As a first step, disable the process KbdMgr.exe, which seems to be yet another incredibly badly written piece of software from Apple. It causes latency spikes every now and then. Many users have reported dramatic improvement in firewire audio performance when this process is not running. Also try to kill other suspicious processes on your system.

I would also recommend you to turn off CPU throttling in Vista. Edit your power options and let the high performance setting use minimum 100% CPU and maximum 100% CPU. It may seem more logical to have minimum 0% CPU and maximum 100% CPU to save some battery, but I have experienced much better audio performance by always keeping it at 100%. Don't expect to be running on battery for too long though. I only use this setting while at home in the studio.

Also make sure that you're using up-to-date nVidia drivers if you have the nvidia gfx card. Grab the latest from here:
http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/

Jul 8, 2008 1:00 PM in response to Richard Van Nostrand

Also please have some sympathy for the Apple programmers.


This has been an extremely frustrating experience, and it's started me off on the mac platform feeling pretty negatively toward apple. I get that boot camp is a collision of independent companies where no one really has full responsibility, and I don't fault apple for bad drivers (including some REALLY bad drivers, like the broadcom wireless, which I think is dubious to even claim that it works). I have two basic issues with apple: I wish they would have acknowledged the existing problems on the front page of the support, and provided links (making sure everyone knows up front you should try turning off wireless would resolve a number of complaints here). Also, for us laptop users, I have issues with being dependent on apple for drivers (i.e. for the nvidia card). Not knowing if a problem is fixed by a recent driver, and not having access to that driver, is very frustrating. There's the same problem with PC vendors, but at least they have market pressure to keep drivers up to date; Apple has a monopoly on machines that run OS X.


How do you like that Tascam unit?


Now that I've had it a little while, I'm very impressed. What I don't like:
* The largish form factor and ridiculous big knob and buttons that I find worthless.

What I'm ambivalent on:
* The sound quality -- at first I thought it wasn't very good, but I suspect I was being subtly influenced by the fact that I think it's hideously ugly. Now, with it at home and integrated, it sounds pretty good, the output at least is approaching the firebox/828mkII range. Don't know about the preamps, that's hard to say without A/Bing but they are at least decent. Overall I have no complaints at all with the sound quality, certainly not enough for me to pull out another device and really try and compare.

What I like:
* The drivers are multiclient, letting multiple audio apps run simultaneously -- not sure how common that is, half the interfaces I've owned can do that and half can't.
* Fully bus-powered. The firebox has a problem where, on the new MBP, you need to have the power supply plugged in when first starting up; it's nice to not deal with that.
* And then a couple small things that are obvious from the pictures: The knobs are reasonably spaced (the firebox and some motu's are way too close together); dual headphone jacks is nice; independent volume and gain controls on everything is nice (my old 828mkII had a single encoder for both volume and main outs, which drove me nuts).

Overall, for the price you can get them at now (US$135), I think it's a really, really good deal.

Jul 8, 2008 1:57 PM in response to exh

Hello, i had similar problems...

situation: MacPro 2,66 ghz quad, 4 gig, and also a Presonus Firebox.

What helped me with this problem was to simpy built in a new PCI express firewire card. some how the firewire outputs dont work the way they should in Windows. after inserting the new PCI express firewire card and using those outputs for my Firebox it work flawless.

i read now you have a MBP...then it wont be that easy to replace your firewire outs.

greetz

Jul 27, 2008 4:35 PM in response to exh

Glad you like the Alesis unit. I agree about the knobs. On my old Alesis, I couldn't believe how BIG the beast was, and I didn't like the continuous knobs at all! However, the sound was great (in between the pops and clicks).

An update on my MOTU Traveler- The beast started developing random clicks and pops! I disconnect all the ins and outs, including the 1394 cable and it still clicked and popped. It's now back in MOTU's repair shop.

I seem to be snake-bit. I'm now using my old Edirol FA-101 with their new driver. Seems to work ok, but I miss all the ins and outs of the Traveler.

This is turning out to be a most unpleasent experience. I just wish Apple would offer some words of wisdom on this problem. Ignoring the issue just upsets a lot of people.

Cheers

Aug 19, 2008 10:24 AM in response to drifter7508

Hi,

I recently bought an iMac after having more than 10 PCs in my life. I use a Tascam FW1082 as mixer and controller with Sonar but I'm learning Logic.

With OSX everything works fine, with XP under boot camp, it's a mess. The FW can receive commands from the DAW but it can't sent any (if it was the opposite...). The sound works but with dropouts after 5 secs.

On my last PC I had a SoundBlaster Audigy for fw interface - it didn't use the PC bios. It's difficult to understand why the Agere driver needs the BIOS to work. I don't understand.

It seems to me that this is a pure driver question. Why Apple didn't fix this yet its was is bugging me.

Aug 20, 2008 7:15 AM in response to Malima2000

Hi all,

Just got exactly the same problem : I bought for my mackbook pro an Edirol FA 66 Firewire, which is fully functionnal on Leopard, but which is not recognized on Windows XP. It was installed correctly on XP, but the card is not proposed for selection in the sound configuration menu.

As I make music with different software (like FL Studio which does not run on Mac), it's a shame the firewire on XP / bootcamp does not work...

Aug 27, 2008 5:54 PM in response to exh

Many thanks to Greetz for the info about the PCI Express controller. After plugging FS to the firewire in the controller it really started to work! At last the flashing red led turned into a beautiful blue one…

Also many thanks to Richard Van Nos… and Myhrman for the info about KbdMgr.

And yet, there are two things I cannot solve.

1.
While using Native Traktor I had severe problems with a ‘disappearance’ of the card, resulting in uncontrollable rests in the music. I switched off the Keyboard Manager (KbdMgr) and the situation got definitely better, but it seems like the problem is still on, as the signal still disappear from time to time. It doesn’t happen in MacOS.

2.
Also in Native Traktor- the tracks for the speakers and the stage monitor overlap and the signal in Firestudio Console lands on one canal, even though the settings are set correctly in the Traktor. Of course with MacOS the same settings for Traktor and Firestudio Console work perfectly and the signal runs on two canals.

If someone could help I would appreciate greatly!

Sep 13, 2008 7:34 AM in response to flx123

I'm having exactly the same problem with my M-Audio FW-1814 in Windows XP and it's frustrating that Windows is able to communicate with the device (e.g. playing with the level controllers changes the level in the control panel mixer) but there's no sound!

I'm considering just getting a new audio interface that is known to work under Boot Camp but wanted to check if you managed to solve this problem at all?

I've tried all the windows hotfixes etc. that I'm aware of but nothing seems to work.

Any help greatly appreciated.

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Windows and firewire audio interfaces

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