RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

Close

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

  • All replies
  • Helpful answers

first Previous Page 94 of 160 last Next
  • by MisterMojo,

    MisterMojo MisterMojo Nov 26, 2013 4:58 PM in response to dmendel
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 26, 2013 4:58 PM in response to dmendel

    I am using a 2012 Mac Mini with an NEC WUXi-2 display. I purchased it two years ago. (The display is discontinued and has been replaced by http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/p241w-bk.)  I chose a CCFL backlit display because I didn't want to take a chance with an LED monitor; I don't have the option of personally demoing a new display where I live.

     

    I have absolutely no problems using the display. In fact, I'd say that it's the best computer display I have ever owned. I use it for many hours every day without a hint of eyestrain. I am using the stock display NEC profile for the WUXi-2 and it is remarkably accurate. Since I am a photographer I'm relatively picky about display quality.

     

    The PA241W-BK is currently available at B&H Photo for $582 vs. its $749 list price.  If that is too high or you just want something different NEC has a wide-range of displays priced from cheap to expensive. While most display manufacturers have switched-over to LED displays NEC offers both LED and CCFL displays. Go to http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors and use the fields on the left-side to quickly find displays that meet your various requirements.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Nov 30, 2013 5:47 AM in response to mvanier
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 30, 2013 5:47 AM in response to mvanier

    An update on the proprietary NVidia linux driver... It is definetely much less eye strain than the open source nouveau driver, but I still get sore eyes after some hour or two . I also cannot see any difference when playing with the dithering options

     

    In the mean time ordered the iPad Air as well, but cannot use more than half an hour or so...

  • by Kxtr73,

    Kxtr73 Kxtr73 Nov 30, 2013 7:18 AM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 30, 2013 7:18 AM in response to StefanD13

    StefanD13

     

    I've tested half the year - 3 different 24-27-32' LCD screens with fluorescent/LED and even incandascent backlight. It always ended the same - pain and sore in right eye. Sometimes bad symptoms appeared after many days, then weeks later even after a few minutes of watching those LCD created immediate eye strain. The image was without PWM and any visible dithering and V-com flicker. I looked through the magnifying glass and everything was stable on the screen. Brightness, lack of blue colour, many eye glasses tested, glass and plasctic sheets before screen or vision distance (from 60 cm to few meters) has changed only some. As a result the pain always came.

     

     

     

    I gave up and returned to CRT. I have no problems at all from 30 years with this technology with min. 85 Hz refresh rate.

     

    You and me have sore eye problem or our eyes are different some kind (mayby ill?) then other people. My wife has watched the same 3 LCD screens as me and did not complain at all.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Nov 30, 2013 7:32 AM in response to Kxtr73
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 30, 2013 7:32 AM in response to Kxtr73

    there is no illness, i have different levels of eye strain (from none to very bad) depending on operating system, driver or color depth. the image may look stable, you will not perceive flicker below 30hz, but your eyes will do. i think i need to invest the 600€ for a frame grabber just to prove myself i'm not crazy...

  • by Kxtr73,

    Kxtr73 Kxtr73 Nov 30, 2013 8:11 AM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 30, 2013 8:11 AM in response to StefanD13

    I don't think it's a good idea. Try better camera with slow motion. Every LCD could flicker from: PWM, dithering and V-com. You can make screen without PWM (now many screens are PWM free) and dithering (ex. 6 BIT TFT panel in 16bit colour Win XP or 8-10 BIT in 32bit colour) but V-com flicker is always there: http://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/an12/an1208.pdf

     

    From some distance (depends from size of screen it could be two meters or more) human eye cannot see dithering or V-com, like you can't even see very visible dithering in plasma technology. Try testing your screen by watching films from distance first for many hours.

     

    BTW. Human eye can see more then 200 HZ flicker in peripheral vision. I switched off 250 HZ PWM in CCFL monitor and I saw the difference. The picture was much nicer and steady.

     

    http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html

    There is a common misconception in human thinking that our eyes can only interpret 30 Frames Per Second (...)   The USAF, in testing their pilots for visual response time, used a simple test to see if the pilots could distinguish small changes in light. In their experiment a picture of an aircraft was flashed on a screen in a dark room at 1/220th of a second. Pilots were consistently able to "see" the afterimage as well as identify the aircraft. This simple and specific situation not only proves the ability to percieve 1 image within 1/220 of a second, but the ability to interpret higher FPS.

  • by Kxtr73,

    Kxtr73 Kxtr73 Nov 30, 2013 8:25 AM in response to Kxtr73
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 30, 2013 8:25 AM in response to Kxtr73

    Read this first and test your screen for inversion and dithering. Get magnifying glass.

     

    http://www.techmind.org/lcd/ inversion=V-com

    http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/features.htm

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Dec 1, 2013 4:08 AM in response to Kxtr73
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 1, 2013 4:08 AM in response to Kxtr73

    Hi Kxtr73,

     

    I know my monitor is not perfect . I have indeed used magnifying glass + slow motion camera (unfortunately cheap and poor quality) and I can see that even in the configuration where I get absolutely no eye strain (Win8 + older Nvidia driver) there is pixel flickering.

    However on same hardware and using Linux + nouveau driver there is huge eye strain, so there must be an influence from the graphic driver itself. This could be catched by a frame grabber...

     

    (Some time ago I tried as well to compare good and bad case using magnifying glass and slow motion camera but couldn't see much. Back then, the bad case was not so bad, maybe I should try again...).

     

    BR,

    Stefan

  • by mvanier,

    mvanier mvanier Dec 1, 2013 8:51 AM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 1, 2013 8:51 AM in response to StefanD13

    Stefan,

     

    I'm curious: how do you change graphics drivers on Linux?  Do you recompile the kernel or X windows?  Also, I've read that on Windows there are extensive customization for the graphics card; have you experimented with any of those?  The goal would be to find options related to pixel flickering/dithering that would actually make eyestrain worse.  BTW, I don't think that all pixel flickering is necessarily going to cause big problems.  If you are flickering a pixel only very slightly (the last bit in the resolution, as dithering often does) and it is done in a regular way (no random spatial flickering) you might not be able to see it and it might not cause eyestrain.

     

    BTW I know this conversation may seem to have drifted far from MacBooks, but since I'm pretty sure the same phenomenon is at work in all OSs, it's still relevant.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Dec 1, 2013 9:34 PM in response to mvanier
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 1, 2013 9:34 PM in response to mvanier

    Hello mvanier,

    No, there is UI option where you can select whether open source or proprietary driver, see als here a description: http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/drivers.

    Only if you change the open source driver, you will need to recompile the kernel and the nouveau kernel module (maybe you can even skip the kernel compilation, but is better to have both original and custom kernel installed, in case you do something wrong in the custom configuration).

    I have tried several options without success. For example there are many settings which you can adjust using nvidia-settings, but at least for dithering (yes, for this you don't even need to fiddle with the xconf.org) they seem not to be working properly, since whatever I set, there is visually not difference and also no difference in the eye strain.

    BR,

    Stefan

  • by mvanier,

    mvanier mvanier Dec 1, 2013 9:44 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 1, 2013 9:44 PM in response to StefanD13

    Stefan,

     

    Thanks for the information.  Is there a nouveau mailing list?  If so, have you asked them to help you with this problem?  There must be someone out there who understands the inner workings of graphics cards/drivers who would be willing to discuss this with us.  I've looked around at the Linux/Xorg source code and it's certainly not for the faint-hearted.  What's worse is that I'm pretty sure that this "random dithering" effect is being put in by the graphics card and simply requested by the driver.  Or maybe not even that; it may be on by default and the driver would have to explicitly ask for it not to be enabled.  But a number of people have mentioned that updating graphics drivers caused eyestrain symptoms to appear on the exact same hardware, so the hardware can't always be the problem.  What would be ideal is if we could locate a change in an open-source driver like the Intel drivers that caused the problem to appear.

  • by ArtechokiQ,

    ArtechokiQ ArtechokiQ Dec 4, 2013 9:33 PM in response to mvanier
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 4, 2013 9:33 PM in response to mvanier

    Did you get a chance to check out EIZO FORIS FG2421?

  • by spprt,

    spprt spprt Dec 4, 2013 10:57 PM in response to ArtechokiQ
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 4, 2013 10:57 PM in response to ArtechokiQ

    In my opinion that monitor is not worth a try. TFT Central's review shows it uses all kinds of eye-hurting technology:

     

    - Backlighting type: W-LED (strong blue spectrum)

    - Color depth: 8-bit + FRC (pixel flicker)

    - PWM below OSD brightness setting 20

    - OSD brightness 20 = 118.05 cd/m2 (ouch!)

  • by ArtechokiQ,

    ArtechokiQ ArtechokiQ Dec 5, 2013 4:36 PM in response to spprt
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 5, 2013 4:36 PM in response to spprt

    Yes you might be right but it has 120Hz VA-panel plus DC dimming above 20%. The frc can be avoided with lower colors and an older operating system or a simple linux OS like Crunchbang. Maybe I am wrong!

  • by Spock66,

    Spock66 Spock66 Dec 5, 2013 6:23 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 5, 2013 6:23 PM in response to RMartin111

    I've written before on this forum about my problems with Led Backlighting.
    I have tested several led computer monitors, including one Eizo without PWM, Ipad 3 and 4 and an LG 55" Led TV set. All of them have given me a terrible eye strain.
    But a week ago, i was in to a Tv and Radio shop to buy a cable and i took the opportunity also to watch the television sets they had there.
    They were all LED.
    One of the television sets had a very soft and comfortable image.
    I was standing and looked at it for about half an hour and to my surprise i didn´t get any eye strain.
    I bought the TV and now i can finally watch a movie without the eyes start to bleed
    The brand of TV is Sony KDL-47W805A (EU) and it has an IPS LG panel, but i've read that the U.S. version is called KDL-47W802A.
    It's very strange that i do not get any eye strain when i get it from all the other led screens i tried?
    So I start wondering if it really is the LED lighting that is the main problem?
    But for those of you who have problems and are looking to buy a TV, go in to a shop and check this tv out. It can be the solution to one of the problems anyway.
    I really hope i can find the right computer screen too

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Dec 6, 2013 6:28 AM in response to Spock66
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 6, 2013 6:28 AM in response to Spock66

    Regarding Sony, I would suggest to try Sony Xperia M. It is a budget smartphone, I used it for a week and i got eye strain and blurry vision after an hour of continuous use, which for me is a great improvement compared to the iphone 4s. I am thinking of buying it for everyday use.

     

    I cannot understand why it is better for my eyes. I think it is a normal LED backlight display.

first Previous Page 94 of 160 last Next