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  • milocricket Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    Opticians can't really help with making the problem go away...  They can tell you what the problem IS, but can not make it go away.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    One display does not cause any problems, but another one does. = problem with the display, not eyes. No need to discuss with an optician. It makes no sense that you would get glasses or something else to enable you to look at a problematic display. Manufactureres should manufacture displays that do not cause eye strain. If your eyes do not get strained reading a book, then they should not get strained looking at a computer display. Simple as that. Then again, if there are individuals who get eye strain no matter which display is used, then they most likely get eye strain reading a book in bright light.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    milocricket and mvanier, not to take anything away from your issue or anyone else's here but there are some disparities in everyone's symptoms and I do not think it is clear what the cause is because of this. I will give the clearest example I can below comparing myself to Mvanier which I think may show something interesting, a theory I have and obviously a simple mans opinion so please just consider my theory without offense:

     

    Based on Mvanier's feedback of being able to tolerate some devices without issue that I cannot tolerate I will list a scale of my most sensitive and offensive device being first and my more tolerable device being last:

     

    Overhead LED lighting or track lighting and street lights-(Many of you have not had exposure to this, consider that these lights do not run software or have dithering or any other computing technology.)

     

    Automobile tail lights and "Halo" lights around headlights ( If you can watch the show TOP GEAR there are many slow motion shots showing these extremely blue/white lights blinking completely on and off in slow motion, interesting?)

     

    LED computer monitors or TV's- Apple monitors being most offensive even at full brightness

    Tablets-e.g. Ipad

    Iphone 5

    Iphone 4

    Iphone 3 (All of which I have experience with)

     

    CFL BULBS-FLUORESCENT OVERHEAD LIGHTING, STREET LIGHTS AND COMPUTER MONITORS NEW OR OLD THAT ARE CCFL

     

    Now, if we compare some of Mvanier's feedback to mine you will notice his iphone 4S does not bother him and neither do fluorescent back lit computer monitors (Please correct me if I am wrong Mvanier but your feedback is spread back through several pages!)

     

    I would present the theory that my condition is on the most sensitive side and Mvanier comes in less sensitive having only issues with the most offensive LED displays. We could both have the exact same reason for being sensitive with simply a varying degree in our condition. It is of course possible there are many conditions for light sensitivty however most people are aware if they have one of these such as LUPUS. Mvanier stated earlier in this post he has not had exposure to overhead LED lighting in his area of the world. What this could mean to some people here is that we could have a similiar issue in varying degrees that is caused by a common trigger. If you use my worst case scenario as a baseline and the list of my triggers then you must consider what is common in all the technologies listed above.

     

    Obviously Spectrum is more intense with LED, all of the above triggers are performing some level of flicker as well but NOT all of them are running software like a computer monitor..........

     

    In conclusion I believe there is value in Mvanier's educated research on making adjustments to displays because it can help those who are having milder issues than my own; however these changes are unlikely to help myself or someone like Kvoth to the degree we could use them without harm.

    I have been wearing Prism lenses with anti-glare for 3 weeks now and my eyes are more relaxed and I have had only 2 migraines in 3 weeks compared to 2 a week! (This is of course in addition to avoiding triggers) There is no way to measure precisely what level of Prism I need because I do not have a traditional Strabismus condition however I am working with my optician to figure this out to see if more positive gaines can be made. When I took Kvoth's advice and video recorded my eyes under relaxation both of my eyes went straight to the middle as if I was cross eyed, it is at least part of an interesting puzzle and I would encourage you all to at least attempt this test.

     

    Signing off for a few days now that I have a headache.....

     

    Jesse

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mojarvinen, some displays are better than others and I agree displays should not be made that give anyone issues BECAUSE if they give anyone issues they could potentially cause long term eye problems for people who are not bothered.

     

    The reason some displays are better than others IMO is because some people are less sensitive and can tolerate monitors that are milder in either spectrum or flicker.

     

    I do not get headaches from reading books however there is not a monitor I can tolerate, I can tolerate my Pioneer 4080HD TV as a computer monitor with my anti-glare glasses for a couple hours. This TV is the mildest monitor I have found yet, if it doesn't bother me I bet most here would be in love with it.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    In addition I would have to say IMO that 95% of society is not having an issue because they obviously do not have some slight difference in their brains/eyes that causes them to be sensitive. The display only proves that those of us here have some sort of medical issue or sensitivity, fixing the displays for us does not uncover what that is....

  • kvoth Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mojarvinen wrote:

     

    One display does not cause any problems, but another one does. = problem with the display, not eyes. No need to discuss with an optician. It makes no sense that you would get glasses or something else to enable you to look at a problematic display. 

    @mojarvinen -- If everyone had these issues with monitors, I'd agree. But that's not the case. We're on this forum trying to figure this out because we're the only ones with these issues.

     

    Something's different with us. Something in our body -- eyes, neurological, etc. -- causes us to have our symptoms triggered by certain light properties -- flicker, light wavelength, etc.

     

    Yes, monitors, LEDs etc. need fixing. There's also another side to the problem: Why do these things affect you and not everyone else?

     

    This thread has been so focused on the triggers that it has blown right past the "why?"

     

    Go to an optomotrist and get checked for prism.

  • milocricket Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    I did optical therapy for more than two years, I am very certain the doctor would have noticed if something was wrong near the end of my time there.

  • mvanier Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Jessiah, first off, I'm very glad you're getting some relief from the prism lenses!  Everyone is different, as you say, and whatever works, works.

     

    I did a couple of interesting experiments yesterday with Ubuntu Linux on my new Macbook Pro.  First off, I used the marvelous "intel_read_reg" and "intel_write_reg" commands from the intel-gpu-tools package to manually set the dithering type.  It confirmed, as I suspected, that there is no temporal dithering in Ubuntu Linux.  There is a pure temporal dithering mode you can set (I think it's just a test mode) and all the pixels started blinking very obviously!  I would have easily noticed this if it had been happening before.  I do think that Apple uses (spatio-)temporal dithering though, and I don't think you can turn it off (thanks, Apple!).  That could give the "swirly" look that most new Apple displays have, though I'm not convinced that this alone causes eyestrain (it may just be an annoyance, and of course it may vary from person to person). 

     

    The second thing I did was to use the laptop's own monitor rather than connecting it to an external CCFL-backlit monitor.  That was very interesting; the laptop monitor, which is LED-backlit, actually caused significantly _less_ eyestrain than the external one!  My best guess is that the Linux Intel graphics drivers are not optimal for driving CCFL-backlit monitors, and you end up with some subtle synchronization problems that result in eyestrain.  With the laptop display, the main problem appears to be the overwhelming amount of blue light coming from the LEDs.  Programs like f.lux or redshift can help with this, and I'm also going to try a blue light shield.  I played some video games for a couple of hours (purely for scientific research, of course) and it wasn't too bad.  It may be possible for some of us less-sensitive people to get used to these new displays over time, much as I would prefer a technological solution.  I'm also going to get a zero-flicker display and see if that helps (which I imagine it will).

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Well, say that Monosodium Glutamate causes symptoms for some people. MSG is added to sausages, but if they were to manufacture sausages without MSG, then nobody would have symptoms.

     

    I agree that while it would be nice to know what is the mechanism that causes the symptoms with MSG, it might be difficult and futile.

     

    Almost the same with the displays. While it might be nice to know what causes the symptoms, it is most likely futile, because the solution is not to use glasses or have surgery or take medication - what else could there be?

     

    People should not need to use special glasses to view a computer monitor.

     

    Same as people should not take medication to tolerate sausages with MSG.

  • milocricket Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    Accidental post...

  • kvoth Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mojarvinen wrote:

     

    I agree that while it would be nice to know what is the mechanism that causes the symptoms with MSG, it might be difficult and futile.

    So, because you think it's futile to find out why we have these issues, we shouldn't pursue it? If you're so quick to give up, that's fine.

     

    I'm trying to explore the other side of this equation and it's unfair and hurtful to this community for you to dismiss my work.

     

    I have found something that works well and I'd like to see others try it, not be discouraged from it because it's 'futile' to figure out.

     

    People should not need to use special glasses to view a computer monitor.

     

    Sure. But that's quite an idealist perspective. People shouldn't starve in the world. Should we not feed the starving because they shouldn't be starving?

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    kvoth - I disagreed with you and pointed out my view. Is that not allowed? This is a discussion forum, not an agreeing forum.

     

    If everyone would agree, then there would be no discussion.

     

    I just wanted to point out that no matter what the "why" is, if there are displays that do not cause problems like in the case of most of us, then it really does not matter what is the "why". (in my opinion)

     

    Why I wanted to point out my view, is that I have been to the eye doctor and discussed extensively about this problem, actually several, but they say that there is no problem in my sight. So even if the solution would be to use some prism glasses, that really is no solution at all. I'm quite certain that there is no magic solution that would remove the symptoms so that we could start to tolerate displays with PWM backlight. To be honest, I would not even want that - if PWM causes symptoms for some, then even if there is would be a way to mitigate thatk, I would think that it still is somewhat harmful.

     

    And again, in my opinion we should focus in confirming what in a display causes the problem and direct our energy in then communicating that to the manufacturers, so that we get displays that do not cause problems.

     

    I this discussion starts to go to the direction where we find all kinds of conditions from different people that can be fixed by special prism glasses and some other solutions, that still is not a good solution - again in my opinion. Because the most simple solution is to make displays that do not cause prolems.

     

    Finally, I do think that many people in this thread have not really tested the displays that have been confirmed not to cause problems, but instead are trying all kinds of different glasses, recuding backlight, using filters, etc. not realizing that you have to try the display with non-strained eyes and test it for a couple of weeks, instead of trying it for a day or two with already strained eyes from a display that has PWM.

     

    Because really - this HP ZR2740w is absolutely problem free (even with iPad strained eyes)

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Mojarvinen, I don't disagree with much that you have said but I think you have still missed one crucial point. What are you going to do about LED industrial and home lighting when it is used everywhere? Do you have overhead LED lighting where you live or use any in your home? Forget about using a computer, Kvoth and I have a problem that exists everywhere in our community and if you don't have LED lights everywhere yet you will soon enough. Maybe your lucky and these light's do not bother you but computer screens do? I would then have to assume you have a case of eyestrain related solely to computer screens which is not the same everyone's experience here. In a world where you cannot escape your symptoms medication, glasses and whatever else you can try is all worth the effort so you can work and live. I am currently on disability and have a strict routine avoiding all kinds of places and only spending short periods of time shopping or going to my gym where there is still fluorescent lighting, I cannot even go to many of the places around me for 1 minute now due to LED overhead lights. I do not hear you having this same issue so we are talking in circles because some of us are trying to solve a complete environment issue and some just a display issue. Neither of us are wrong, but we both need different solutions if we have different problems.

     

    On the other hand I would love to try the monitor, I wish I had the money to buy it right now, maybe I will and return it just so I can rule it out at the very least. However, there is a strong possibility your HP ZR2740w is fine for you and terrible for me because as I stated in my post above we could have the exact same issue and I happen to have it worse.

     

    I say all this with complete respect and encourage more discussion, I would even love to hear your answers to some of my questions about where you live and overhead LED lighting.

     

    If many of us are sensitive to both we must ask the question and figure out "WHAT IS THE SAME ABOUT ALL LED LIGHTING IN OUR WORLD THAT IS BOTHERING US" Obviously not all LED lighting has Dithering....Like car tail lights and "Eyebrow" lights and LED light bulbs ect.

     

    Is anyone else asking themselves this, do others in this discussion have stores or gas stations with LED lighting? Or have trouble at night driving behind cars with all those little red devil dot tail lights?

     

    Jesse

  • kvoth Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    mojarvinen wrote:

     

    kvoth - I disagreed with you and pointed out my view. Is that not allowed? This is a discussion forum, not an agreeing forum.

     

    You're making unsupported claims.

     

     

    I just wanted to point out that no matter what the "why" is, if there are displays that do not cause problems like in the case of most of us, then it really does not matter what is the "why". (in my opinion)

     

    Short sighted. You are looking to fix one (of many) triggers, rather than addressing the real issue. They are both worthwhile to investigate.

     

    Why I wanted to point out my view, is that I have been to the eye doctor and discussed extensively about this problem, actually several, but they say that there is no problem in my sight

     

    We are breaking new ground, this is not a well known/researched issue.

    So even if the solution would be to use some prism glasses, that really is no solution at all.

    What?

     

    I'm quite certain that there is no magic solution that would remove the symptoms so that we could start to tolerate displays with PWM backlight.

     

    Where is this certainty coming from? This whole thread is conjecture. I'm not bashing what people are contributing -- this thread has been great and we're doing the best we can -- I'm just saying that there has been no controlled experiment run across a sufficiently large group. There is no definitive evidence here and no room for your "certainty".

     

     

    To be honest, I would not even want that - if PWM causes symptoms for some, then even if there is would be a way to mitigate thatk, I would think that it still is somewhat harmful.

     

     

    Evidence?

     

    And again, in my opinion we should focus in confirming what in a display causes the problem and direct our energy in then communicating that to the manufacturers, so that we get displays that do not cause problems.

    Yes. Bad displays are part of the bigger problem.

     

    I this discussion starts to go to the direction where we find all kinds of conditions from different people that can be fixed by special prism glasses and some other solutions, that still is not a good solution - again in my opinion. Because the most simple solution is to make displays that do not cause prolems.

    It is abundantly clear that you only want a PWM free monitor and nothing else.

     

    I hear what you're saying loud and clear: If strabismus is what makes PWM hard for us, who cares? We shouldn't need stupid glasses. All that matters is a good monitor.

     

    If overhead lighting, car lights, dashboards, etc. are a problem for us? Who cares, just get a good monitor.

     

    Finally, I do think that many people in this thread have not really tested the displays that have been confirmed not to cause problems, but instead are trying all kinds of different glasses, recuding backlight, using filters, etc. not realizing that you have to try the display with non-strained eyes and test it for a couple of weeks, instead of trying it for a day or two with already strained eyes from a display that has PWM.

    You must be new to this thread. Start from the beginning and give it a read. We have spent so much time discussing displays (go ahead, read my comment history), that some of us are moving on to new topics.

    Because really - this HP ZR2740w is absolutely problem free (even with iPad strained eyes)

    Please, keep investigating monitors. Any information here is good information. But stay out of the way of others who are past that problem and are trying to break new ground.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Sorry, kvoth this is a thread about monitor causing eye strain. While it is valuable to know what else can be connected to the problem, I do not think that it is generally valuable to persons seeking answers to the monitor problem.

     

    Please do not take this as harsh feedback, but really by any standard it is a bit strange that car tail lights and overhead ceiling lights cause such a big problem that one is on disability. I don't mean to strawman argument here. I know that there are people that are so sensitive to light that they cannot go outdoors at all and must wear sunglassess also inside. But that is a different condition and if a manufacturer reads this thread that sees that this is about people with strabismus, head injures, extreme sensitivity to light, no manufacturer will start investigating if there is a display that is suitable for people with extreme light sensitivity, since that is really such a marginal group. Also, next time I get a display from IT department that irritates my eyes, it would be nice to have a place in web where I could link "see, others have this problem too". But if they take a look at this tread, this has become something completely different than people sensitive to cheaply made PWM dimmed displays with poorly implemented dithering or uneven light spectrum. Do you see my point?

     

    Really, no disrespect for people which such conditions, and I might be one of those someday. But at the moment I see that there are a lot of commercials on TV about lubricating eye drops, people complaining irritated eyes and people having clearly irritated red eyes. I suspect that the cause is the same that I have - sensitivity to poorly made displays and now the LED PWM has made it even worse. One factor might also be, that people are now looking full workday the screen at work and then browsing the web on the sofa with an iPad. When all of the displays they are using are poorly implemented, it might cause mild eye strain even to people that are not that sensitive. But I doubt that there is an epidemic of extreme light sensitivity. Also, if car tail lights cause irritation, I would think a better place would be a car manufacturer forum.

     

    And yes, I have been following this thread only a little over a year, but I think I read also the first posts when I started to subscribe to this thread.

     

    Of course, if strabismus causes PWM intolerance and also car tail light intolerance, yes in that case it might be worthwhile to get glasses to mitigate, but still, get a monitor that does not irritate, then the total amount of irriation is far less. 

     

    I have had this problem since the first Sony Trinitron monitor I purchased in 1998. I had to get rid of that, because extreme eye strain. Then along the way there has been several monitors that have been irritating, but I do not have a problem with any other light source. I have replaced some of the halogens with LED's, I drive a car with LED lights, I use heavily LED flashlights in the bicycle etc. I simple do not have a problem with anything else than a bad monitor. That's my situation, and during the years, I have got the feeling that there are others with the same kind of situation. That it does not have to be anything "extreme" like sensitivity to car tail lights. It can be just sensitivity to PWM controlled backligths and this is something that needs to be fixed by manufactures.