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  • kvoth Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    This isn't a productive discussion. I am responding to your posts, but you are not responding to mine.

    mojarvinen wrote:

     

    Sorry, kvoth this is a thread about monitor causing eye strain. While it is valuable to know what else can be connected to the problem, I do not think that it is generally valuable to persons seeking answers to the monitor problem.

     

    There are 107 pages and 1,600 replies to this thread -- the discussion has moved to understanding all aspects of the problem better. If you need information on what monitors work, please PM me and I'll give you a list of the monitors listed in this thread and which ones work for me.

     

    Please do not take this as harsh feedback, but really by any standard it is a bit strange that car tail lights and overhead ceiling lights cause such a big problem that one is on disability. I don't mean to strawman argument here. I know that there are people that are so sensitive to light that they cannot go outdoors at all and must wear sunglassess also inside. But that is a different condition

    Neither you, nor I, nor anyone here knows if it's a different condition. Again, you are making things up based on your emotions and 'intuition'.

     

    and if a manufacturer reads this thread that sees that this is about people with strabismus, head injures, extreme sensitivity to light, no manufacturer will start investigating if there is a display that is suitable for people with extreme light sensitivity, since that is really such a marginal group.

     

    I'm not interested in burying hypotheses and information that could lead to discovering what the real issue is.

     

    If you think that censoring information will lead to Tim Cook announcing new Macbook Pro screen for Mojarvinen from the Apple Discussion Forums, then you're being naive.

     

    Also, next time I get a display from IT department that irritates my eyes, it would be nice to have a place in web where I could link "see, others have this problem too". But if they take a look at this tread, this has become something completely different than people sensitive to cheaply made PWM dimmed displays with poorly implemented dithering or uneven light spectrum. Do you see my point?

    I see the point you're trying to make. I don't agree. There are two -- not one -- parts to this problem. Some displays cause mild to severe irritation. However, this only happens with a minority of people.

     

    If someone finds the reason why this minority of people have physical responses, and more importantly finds a solution, than it is more valuable than compiling a list of monitors that are pre-approved.

     

    And in any event, more information, more datapoints, more discussion is good.

     

     

    Really, no disrespect for people which such conditions, and I might be one of those someday. But at the moment I see that there are a lot of commercials on TV about lubricating eye drops, people complaining irritated eyes and people having clearly irritated red eyes. I suspect that the cause is the same that I have - sensitivity to poorly made displays and now the LED PWM has made it even worse. One factor might also be, that people are now looking full workday the screen at work and then browsing the web on the sofa with an iPad. When all of the displays they are using are poorly implemented, it might cause mild eye strain even to people that are not that sensitive. But I doubt that there is an epidemic of extreme light sensitivity. Also, if car tail lights cause irritation, I would think a better place would be a car manufacturer forum.

     

     

    Good Lord. Go to a car manufacturer forum? Should I petition each car that passes me to change their lights? Should I contact the owner of each gym that has terrible overhead lighting?

     

    You're not seeing the trees for the forest.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    "Sorry, kvoth this is a thread about monitor causing eye strain. While it is valuable to know what else can be connected to the problem, I do not think that it is generally valuable to persons seeking answers to the monitor problem."

     

    Going to have to disagree with you on that one for sure, I have found so much information here completely unrelated to monitors that has helped my issue. If you re-read the first post you would also see the original poster had similar headache and Nasuea symptoms to myself and others here. The reality is that we are all here trying to help each other and that involves more than monitors for some people here, it's amazing to me you have no issue with any other form of LED light and a blessing for you. It's something we should think more about not disregard or ignore, it actually may help explain some thing's relating to spectrum and flicker.

     

    Please do not take this as harsh feedback, but really by any standard it is a bit strange that car tail lights and overhead ceiling lights cause such a big problem that one is on disability.

     

    I'm sorry, strange? Your issue is normal and myself and others here are strange?  You obviously have no idea what I am going through or you would not have that opinion, I wonder if you simply have dry eye's sir? Now is it fair that I made the assumption you are complaining about something insignificant? Through my website I recently just had another person who has the exact symptoms as myself contact me who was fired from their job because they went to the hospital in an ambulance after getting dizzy and vomiting at work under intense overhead lighting and could not return without experiencing the same issue, is this person also strange? Now you have actually offended me and I was trying to remain respectful of your views and engage in a fact finding conversation with you. I have a debilitating condition that is keeping me from living a normal life and there are others here just like me on this forum looking for answers as well, are you telling us because our search for answers is not your search we should look elsewhere?  I also know people who are so sensitive to light they cannot go outdoors without extremely dark glasses, one of which happens to be on disability as well, why is my situation different when the outdoors these days are completely flooded with un-natural light at all times of day wherever you go? I live in NH and my neighboring state VT is 90% LED lighting now thanks to the power company, I cannot visit a single business I once used to without having a 2-3 day migraine.

     

    It is important to share related issues here, it helps narrow down root causes and uncover possible solutions. I would like a computer monitor that I could work on, I have tried many monitors, tablets and data phones to no avail. When my 7 year old Pioneer Plasma dies I will be lucky to find something like it to use as a computer monitor used on ebay. Is it not relevant what commonalities we may have with health or eyesight? Does finding me a monitor not matter but for you we should all be happy and stop discussing? I really cannot understand why you are speaking from such an authoritative position when you are obviously not a Dr. or PHD in light sensitivity, did you know that Kvoth and I both have had conversations with PHD's in light sensitivity, several in fact. Do you understand I have seen Neuro-Opthamologists, Neurologists, PHD's and a whole host of other Dr.'s who support my issue and understand its new but it is REAL. No, you do not know this because you did not ask, what you know seems to be the only important agenda item here.

     

    I have actually lost track of why I am even responding to your post, it is neither scientific or helpful opinion. It's really a shame because your feedback about not having issues with LED flashlights and household lights was the most important data you provided and now I am frustrated to think of asking anymore questions...

     

    You do not know anything about someone else if you have not walked in their shoes and that is a very difficult thing to do without even asking questions.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    kvoth - please refrain from the insulting tone. I see that you are frustrated with your problems and that you direct your anger towards anyone that dares to have any differing views, as I understand that you have probably encountered quite a few doctors and other persons who don't seem to believe you. I know - I tend to be frustrated also, if someone comes and starts to yak about setting the backlight dimmer or getting some yellow glassess. For me it is the PWM, no mysticism. The optic nerve senses the flicker and that causes the irritation.

     

    And please - while I'm the first to value scientific peer reviewed, double blind studies and providing references to all claims, we just do not have the studies available in this subject. I do know that for myself it is not the same thing as the extreme light sensitivity, this I can say for a fact. The solution to that is not start trying out prism glasses and going to the eye doctor to investigate what is the problem. The solution is to get a display that does not irritate. It's a bit similar than with coeliac diseas - you avoid gluten and do not post forums full of hypotetical stuff and go from doctor to doctor to find a way to tolerate gluten. But then of course, IF you also have intolerance to almost everything else, then you might do the opposite, but as I pointed out, then you are such a minority, that it is not valuable to discuss that among coeliac forums.

     

    But I see I have lost the battle, this has become a thread where all kinds of problems from head injuries to extreme light sensitivity is discussed in relation to bad monitors.

     

    And yes, really - if car tail lights give you problems, why discuss it in a computer monitor thread. While those could be somehow intertwined, again, I assume that the vast majority will find that this is not the case in their own situation.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    OH! Kvoth just reminded me, I HAVE PETITIONED CAR MANUFACTURERS TO USE DIFFERENT LIGHTING! My wife and I have written every government institution and manufacturer to complain about not just my problem but the brightness and distracting windshield glare LED tail lights create. We have written Toyota about the RAV4 and no response but interesting the car is not using LED tail lights for the 2014 model year.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    The insults are coming you from you sir, your arrogant tone is also infuriating while you discount what is real life proven experiments as much as your own with different monitors. No one automatically discounted your opinions when you shared your experiences as you did to both Kvoth and myself. There is so much wrong with your approach I simply cannot respond any further because there is still nothing of value to discuss and now I see that there will not be.

  • mvanier Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I hate to get in the middle of a flame war :-)  I'm wondering, though, whether the problem with LED lights on cars is the LED light spectrum or flicker?  I would _assume_ that LED lights on cars shouldn't flicker because they could easily be driven as direct-current devices, but I would never underestimate the ability of manufacturers to dump flicker into a system where it didn't belong.  If it's the light spectrum, then my guess would be that this problem will take care of itself in 2-3 years at most.  It is quite possible to manufacture LED lights with better light spectra, and this is routinely already done for indoor light bulb replacements (though most of these flicker).  As long as people want this, they will get eventually get it.  If the problem is flicker, then it's a different story; petitions may be necessary.

     

    BTW I respect everyone's opinion on this forum; I personally don't mind diverting into somewhat off-topic discussions as long as there is a thread connecting them to the main one (as you can see, since I've done this many times).  But please, folks, let's try to be civil.  If you're not interested in a particular sub-discussion, just ignore the posts.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Jessiah1 - this is the problem of internet forums. It for some reason becomes an argument almost every time after first post that is not in full agreement.

     

    I did not mean to say you are strange. But you have to admit that PWM sensitivity and light sensitivity is considered somewhat strange. Also, if you compare that someone gets eye straing from certain monitors and the other gets eyes strain and migraines from almost any lights, could be argued the latter is even more strange. No intention to be insulting.

     

    I wonder why you start talking about dry eyes...

     

    But I have to admit that I engaged to this thread once again because someone again suggested that just getting some glasses would help. It has been evident in this thread over and over again that if you have one display that does not bother you, then the solution is not to get a bad display and glasses to use it.

     

    In my opinion (and I am allowed to have one) we have two main groups: People sensitive to bad monitors and people sensitive to many kinds of light. First one is fixed with a proper monitor, second one might be a completely separate issue.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I am not arguing with you, simply asking for respect where my issue is concerned. Ask questions, do not assume something is strange because it is strange to you. Proper conversation etiquette would be nice (Respect for others views without judgement), maybe you are used to calling people strange if they have issues you don't understand but that is an insulting approach to me. I do not get migraines from almost any light and if we spoke more about our similar issue you would possibly have another persons experience to help you understand your own more. Much can always be learned from everyone you meet. Do I sense a language barrier or something? That would help explain some of our issue here.....I am generally not confrontational I hate this type of conversation, also, typed words are easily read with emotion that may not be there.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    No worries Mvanier, sometimes a cooler head needs to enter. To respond about car lights:

     

    I can prove they do flicker intensely, you probably missed my first post about the tv show "Top Gear", the British or American version will do. In this show when cars are sliding sideways in particular with extremely slow motion video you can see LED lights front and rear of cars blinking like Christmas tree lights. The eyebrow lights on the expensive cars are the easiest to notice because they are a bright white.

     

    The reason I am so passionate about this part of the discussion is because I am trying to understand what these lights on auto's have in common with computer monitors, is it flicker and spectrum or sometime else as well? It would be really interesting to know exactly what is the same about them because they are both major issues for me.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hmm... now this conversation is getting strange. Maybe a language barrier. You keep saying I called  you strange. I don't think I called you or anyone strange. As I said, I also have the strange problem of being sensitive to PWM displays. I said it is even more strange to be sensitive to other lights as well. Now if the word "strange" in english language is always considered insulting in any context and is always considered to refer to a person not e.g. a condition, then it seems I made a mistake. In my native language I can call a condition strange without that being insulting to anyone. I mean - isn't it a fact that the symptoms that we all here experience are a bit "strange" compared to the next guy?

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    "Jessiah1 - this is the problem of internet forums. It for some reason becomes an argument almost every time after first post that is not in full agreement."

     

    No offense intended here but until you entered the conversation I have not argued with anyone here so some self reflection may be needed if this is an outcome with Internet forums you frequently experience. Consider that friendly advice which it is not usually my custom to advise without being asked to but I feel the need to make an exception here after you wound me up.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Jessiah1 - did you notice my post about the DSLR tests? I think you could test the flicker quite easily with a DSLR - film the tail lights with shutter speed of 4000. If the footage shows flicker (like in Top Gear) then it flickers. If it flickers then it is yet another nail to the coffing flickering light. Then we are even closer to the solution, that by removing all flickering light, there will be at least less symptoms.

     

    And why LED lights especially - because the LED dims instantly, instead of fading to black so the flicker is more harsh than with some other form of light.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Native language being? We'll the context in which you used the word discounted my situation as being not worthy of disability, please go back and read again to understand this better. I can see you are not trying to be insulting, I will not waste anymore of your time discussing it and consider it a simple misfortune.

  • mojarvinen Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Jessiah1 - please let's not continue on this topic. Let's just continute the discussion on the thread in the thread as close as possible to the thread topic.

  • Jessiah1 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Jessiah1 - did you notice my post about the DSLR tests? I think you could test the flicker quite easily with a DSLR - film the tail lights with shutter speed of 4000. If the footage shows flicker (like in Top Gear) then it flickers. If it flickers then it is yet another nail to the coffing flickering light. Then we are even closer to the solution, that by removing all flickering light, there will be at least less symptoms.

     

    And why LED lights especially - because the LED dims instantly, instead of fading to black so the flicker is more harsh than with some other form of light.

     

    Now we are getting somewhere valuable and I think we understand each other, unfortunately my head is killing me after too much computer time now and I need  break, lol. I agree completely with your last statement and Kvoth learned some interesting technical data from a light pHD who explained "Square" wavelength to him.

     

    I do not need to further test the lights because I have seen proof of it sooo many times but I could try this if I can get access to the right camera, maybe myself or someone else could post a video of this? I will try to do it.