RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by peter_watt,

    peter_watt peter_watt May 13, 2014 2:56 AM in response to Exandas
    Level 3 (910 points)
    May 13, 2014 2:56 AM in response to Exandas

    "Rumored"?  Look at the date of articles you want to cite.

     

    Is this pitiful thread ever going to

    1. End

    2. Be relevant to the topic?

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas May 13, 2014 3:52 AM in response to peter_watt
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 13, 2014 3:52 AM in response to peter_watt

    Sorry about the posting date. But if you would like the thread to end, why dont you just stop following it.

  • by peter_watt,

    peter_watt peter_watt May 13, 2014 4:08 AM in response to Exandas
    Level 3 (910 points)
    May 13, 2014 4:08 AM in response to Exandas

    I cant, it's following me since I posted about 120 pages ago. It keeps surfacing to the top of my "Your Stuff" every time someone buys some non-Apple product and says this helps or does not help.

    This is not a chat room for people with eye problems, serious though they may be. It is a forum to help people with a technical issue that can be solved with an aswer. One person, one problem, one thread.  I have asked for the thread to be locked three times but the Hosts are more tolerant than I.

    Please feel free to report this post (if anyone is on level 2 or above, ah no, that needs people who have helped others with problems and I don't see many posting here)

  • by Gareth Jones6,

    Gareth Jones6 Gareth Jones6 May 13, 2014 4:46 AM in response to peter_watt
    Level 1 (10 points)
    May 13, 2014 4:46 AM in response to peter_watt

    I feel your pain Peter, it must be really hard for you having something appear in 'your stuff'.

     

    I think I speak for most when I say that we find the broader discussion very helpful and it is difficult to move the conversation elsewhere when it has such traction here. Sorry that you don't wnt it to be this way but you are in the minority. There's certainly no need to be rude.

  • by mojarvinen,

    mojarvinen mojarvinen May 13, 2014 7:20 PM in response to Gareth Jones6
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 13, 2014 7:20 PM in response to Gareth Jones6

    Ok, this is getting ridiculous. I bought Sony xperia Z2, because I tested it with a Dslr in the shop, to be completely flicker free. Also, my wife's Z1 does not irritate my eyes. Now after usin the phone for 3 hours, my eyes are bloodshot and feel like sandpapered.

     

    Back to gs2 that does not irritate at all.

     

    Would there be any way in this modern world to investigate the difference between gs2 screen and Z2 screen, that what is causing the severe eyestrain in the Z2, when sg2s is problem free??

  • by clintonfrombirmingham,

    clintonfrombirmingham clintonfrombirmingham May 13, 2014 7:48 PM in response to peter_watt
    Level 7 (30,009 points)
    Mac OS X
    May 13, 2014 7:48 PM in response to peter_watt

    peter_watt,

     

    You can unsubscribe to any thread by clicking on the:

     

    FirefoxScreenSnapz009.png

    Actions>"Stop email notifications" -> is that what you wish to do?

     

    I don't have any problems with eye irration, headaches, etc., but I do monitor this discussion from time to time for my friends who have problems with LCD screens.

     

    Clinton

  • by Scott98981,

    Scott98981 Scott98981 May 13, 2014 8:36 PM in response to mojarvinen
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Notebooks
    May 13, 2014 8:36 PM in response to mojarvinen

    I feel the same way about the Ipad 3 or 4 vs. Ipad Air. I can read the Ipad 3 all day, but the air causes lasting eye pain to my eyes that persists for up to two days. I have the same problem with my macbook pro retina, which I'm having to use with an external CCFL. I am hopeful that there is some underlying solution, given that not all LED screens seem to be problematic. I just wish it were possible to determine what the mechanism of eye strain is and isolate it.

  • by mojarvinen,

    mojarvinen mojarvinen May 13, 2014 9:14 PM in response to Scott98981
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 13, 2014 9:14 PM in response to Scott98981

    I still assume it is the flicker, but with z2 the frequency might be so high, that even 4000 shutterspeed video cannot display it, but the optic nerve still reacts to it. Be the flicker from backlight or dithering.

  • by spprt,

    spprt spprt May 13, 2014 11:54 PM in response to mojarvinen
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 13, 2014 11:54 PM in response to mojarvinen

    I also think it's flicker, but it's difficult to prove it.

     

    My theory is that most "modern" panels use FRC (dithering) to reach a high color depth because it's cheaper to produce them when they only have 6-bit. There was a time when most if not all IPS panels had 8-bit without FRC. In late 2011, cheap smartphones from chinese companies were introduced that had IPS panels. I remember reviewers wondering why such cheap phones had "expensive" IPS panels. They probably didn't. It was most probably the time when IPS got reduced to 6-bit + FRC, according to some link that was posted here a while ago (TFTcentral?).

     

    Well, is it a coincidence that iPhones (4) from 2010, or as some say early iPhones 4s from late 2011 have one of the eye-friendliest screens? Probably because they still use those old true 8-bit panels without any dithering, probably plus a flicker free backlight.

     

    I'm still waiting for a monitor that officially uses a true 8-bit panel without any kinds of dithering + true flicker free backlight. It may be the only way to get some proof.

  • by peter_watt,

    peter_watt peter_watt May 14, 2014 1:06 AM in response to clintonfrombirmingham
    Level 3 (910 points)
    May 14, 2014 1:06 AM in response to clintonfrombirmingham

    I dont use email subscriptions, I use Your Stuff/Discussions. There is no way to unsubscribe a thread from that subsystem that I know of. This thread just rises to the top every time someone disproves someone else's theory.

  • by clintonfrombirmingham,

    clintonfrombirmingham clintonfrombirmingham May 14, 2014 1:15 AM in response to peter_watt
    Level 7 (30,009 points)
    Mac OS X
    May 14, 2014 1:15 AM in response to peter_watt

    peter_watt,

     

    Ah... no, I know of no way to change the "Your Stuff" rankings. I don't use it myself.

     

    Sorry,

     

    Clinton

  • by TroubleDuck,

    TroubleDuck TroubleDuck May 16, 2014 6:23 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 16, 2014 6:23 AM in response to RMartin111

    Have any of you seen this video:

     

    youtube.com/watch?v=j5lrZVvBS4s

  • by CT,

    CT CT May 16, 2014 6:25 AM in response to TroubleDuck
    Level 6 (17,883 points)
    Notebooks
    May 16, 2014 6:25 AM in response to TroubleDuck

    I have not seen it.  Thanks, TroubleDick!

  • by peter_watt,

    peter_watt peter_watt May 16, 2014 7:59 AM in response to TroubleDuck
    Level 3 (910 points)
    May 16, 2014 7:59 AM in response to TroubleDuck

    Do they have one of paint drying?

  • by Scott98981,

    Scott98981 Scott98981 May 23, 2014 10:32 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Notebooks
    May 23, 2014 10:32 PM in response to RMartin111

    I think I may have narrowed something down. Not sure. When I use the macbook pro on an external CCFL monitor with PWM (Dell S2409W) with HDMI -> DVI, I have no eye strain. I have two of these old monitors and have no problem with them on my windows machine (win7 or 8) or my mac (running mavericks). I can confirm that this monitor has a visible PWM frequency if filming the screen with an iPhone camera. It's not visible as a flicker with the naked eye. I can tolerate this PWM and many other CCFLs with flicker without apparent problems. Here's the interesting part. If I connect the monitor HDMI -> HDMI from mac to the monitor, I get the problematic symptoms that I have when using the macbook pro retina's screen: nausea, eye strain, headache, etc. Does anyone know what could be happening here with HDMI vs. DVI cables? This sounds crazy, I know, but I can reproduce it multiple times with the same effect. I think someone made a similar comment earlier in the thread. This suggests that a sofware fix could be sufficient to make the MBPr screen work for me if I can figure out what is happening between the HDMI and DVI connector. Again I have no EE background, so I'm hoping someone here knows more about this.

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