RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by Zini316,

    Zini316 Zini316 Aug 24, 2014 5:41 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Aug 24, 2014 5:41 AM in response to RMartin111

    The frustration continues. I ordered an 2014 macbook air and had the problem come on. It was a slow process with the neck stiffness, then headache, then the eye strain. It occurred over maybe a 1 hour period. Each time using it after that, the symptoms developed even faster. Unfortunately this is going back. I then went to Best Buy and purchased the Asus 15.6" HD LED touchscreen laptop. That was brutal. Within minutes I felt the pain occur, especially the eye strain.

     

    What puzzles me, is I'm currently using an HP Pavilion m6-1035dx Entertainment Notebook with a 15.6-inch diagonal HD BrightView LED-backlit display and I have zero issues with it. On top of it I use an iPad 3 and iphone 5 and I don't have issues with them either.

     

    The search continues....

  • by webhughes,

    webhughes webhughes Aug 26, 2014 11:55 AM in response to webhughes
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 26, 2014 11:55 AM in response to webhughes

    Recently purchased the Dell U2414H and am very pleased to say I've had minimal difficulty with it. I use it exclusively for music production and have been able to work for several hours in a row with no noticeable fatigue, headache, eye strain, eye redness, or confusion (all of which I had within 15 minutes on the 2013 iMac). I've got the brightness turned down and F.lux killing as much blue as possible. Very easy on the eyes. Would recommend trying this setup to people experiencing flicker sensitivity.

  • by cporro,

    cporro cporro Aug 26, 2014 12:18 PM in response to webhughes
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 26, 2014 12:18 PM in response to webhughes

    ding ding ding. we have a winner. coincidence that this model (U2414) happens to be flicker free? they are pretty rare.

     

    you guys need to start with the most obvious and work from there. the most obvious imo is flicker aka PWM. led back lights can flicker amazingly better then CCFLs (older screens). instead of just trying new products and changing monitor settings and OS and some other irrelevant things (imo) go test a flicker free screen. i've been reading this thread for a while now and there are a lot of people looking in the wrong places or not understanding the basic troubles with artificial light.

     

    do that. then please report back. : )

  • by spprt,

    spprt spprt Aug 26, 2014 1:07 PM in response to cporro
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 26, 2014 1:07 PM in response to cporro

    I'd like to report back. I purchased the BenQ EW4240L, which has been advertised as "flicker-free". But it didn't help in any way. They refer to use "direct current", however I fear that just DC is not enough. The current has to be steady, not pulsating in any way. From what I read, that is only possible with good electronic circuits.

     

    Have a look a this Wikipedia entry, about DC ripples:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier#Rectifier_output_smoothing

     

    I noticed a pulsating area on the BenQ's display, visible with bare eyes. Probably a rippled DC output.

     

    What is flicker after all? In the case of PWM: extreme changes in brightness levels over time, periodically repeating, and fast.

    DC ripples' only difference is that the changes of min and max brightness are less drastic. But they are there, and if you're sensitive to them, you might notice the usual symptoms.

     

    That said, I would love to buy the Dell and see that it works, but it uses FRC, which is another source of flicker. I don't think the size of the flicker source is relevant if one's sensitive. Makes the buy and try even more of a lottery game. Also, U2414H's measured minimum luminance of 32.11 cd/m2 (measured by TFT Central) seems very bright if you need to use it in a darkened room. I don't remember the values, but iPad and iPhone values for example are much lower.

  • by cporro,

    cporro cporro Aug 26, 2014 3:02 PM in response to spprt
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 26, 2014 3:02 PM in response to spprt

    that's too bad. i have a benq right now. and to be honest i don't notice much difference from my cheapo dells.

     

    but i'm doing this to prevent eye troubles. i don't have the symptoms some of you do. i just don't find the screen nearly as comfortable as paper. i figure i can get ahead of this or have a serous issue in the future.

     

    you are right about the cost of a good transformer. i don't think anyone is going to put one in a monitor. but you shouldn't notice a pulsating area on the screen. that's not right on any level.

  • by Gareth Jones6,

    Gareth Jones6 Gareth Jones6 Aug 27, 2014 5:49 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Aug 27, 2014 5:49 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hi, can anyone explain why I'm not receiving email updates for this thread anymore? Also, when i log in, my user name only appears on page 137 - if i go to pages 138 or 139, it calls me a guest and wont allow me to post?

  • by AleScod,

    AleScod AleScod Aug 30, 2014 7:02 AM in response to Gareth Jones6
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 30, 2014 7:02 AM in response to Gareth Jones6

    Hi everyone,

    this is my first post ever on this forum. I've come across this thread many times, looking for a solution to this problem, since I'm suffering from this problem. I have a late '13 rMBP and it's getting harder and harder to set it up so that my eyes won't turn red. I also have an iPad 3 and an iPhone 5 I can use all day long with no problems. The strange thing is that the MBP is also hard on the eyes when connected to my old friendly external monitor through minidisplay port.

    I've tried everything: flux, various resolutions and brightness levels, white on black words, bigger fonts, different color profiles but the problem is still there.

    The only thing I was wondering was if this could be a Mavericks related problem, maybe the font smoothing is messed up or something else. I tried the first public beta of Yosemite, and even if this was for a short period, the way it handled the display seemed much better on the eyes to me.

    Has anyone had the same impression?

  • by Scott98981,

    Scott98981 Scott98981 Sep 13, 2014 8:01 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Notebooks
    Sep 13, 2014 8:01 PM in response to RMartin111

    I finally tried out an LED light bulb for external lighting and unfortunately found the Philips A19 warm 11W bulb to be intolerable, causing similar symptoms to most LED backlit monitors/laptops. What I find interesting about this is that the color temperature of this bulb is clearly yellow shifted (suggesting against problems with blue light), and I found this interesting website that tests LED bulbs with oscilloscopes for flicker and also displays the frequency spectrum. This bulb in question appears to have minimal PWM and yet I just can't use it.

     

    It appears that the EPA has suggested that LED bulbs cycle at no less than 150 Hz, but the industry has pushed back, instead wanting to use 120 Hz as this is easier to use, being twice the mains frequency of AC from wall outlets. It may be that 120 Hz is just too low of a frequency given the rapid response time of LEDs ~ 10 ms until no longer producing light after switched off. 

     

    I'm considering trying to find a DC source to power the bulb and see if that removes the eye-strain and nausea, and some dimmer manufacturers appear to have recognized the potential for eye strain at lower frequencies and some flicker free dimmers may be available.

     

    Has anyone had any success with an led lightbulb? I recognize this is not directly related to the MBP, but the LED technology and flicker phenomena may have reasonable correlates.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Sep 14, 2014 12:46 AM in response to Scott98981
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Sep 14, 2014 12:46 AM in response to Scott98981

    I don't know for sure, but I think my threshold is somewhere close to 2khz.

    A friend of mine bought some LED bulbs which are OK for me, I think I even measured and couldn't determine any flicker. I'll ask him about the brand/model...

  • by hydrogen08,

    hydrogen08 hydrogen08 Sep 15, 2014 1:51 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Sep 15, 2014 1:51 PM in response to StefanD13

    So can we compile a list of the monitors/laptops that WORK..

    That way everyone can easily access and try out those particular monitors.

     

    In fact, I think Stefan or someone computer savvy should create a forum just for this particular issue. There's so many people here.

    We should also create some kind of online petition or online document to send to ophthalmology organizations so they can research to see what is going on here.

     

    Our work-life, school-life and life in general is affected by this issue.

    I'm literally getting lower marks because I can't use a single laptop! I have to use my ipad for EVERYTHING.

     

    So Far, WHAT WORKS IS:

    1. Dell M1530 laptop worked (old model)

    2. HP Pavilion m6-1035dx Entertainment Notebook (one poster)

    3. Some people said to try hooking up external monitors with DVI to DVI wires or something? (as opposed to DVI to HDMI; they said it made a diff and cause ZERO problems in some cases)

     

    [Extra: Dell U2414H (I bought this monitor myself and it is much better for redness than macbook but still caused headache and pain after a while, It's not the solution)]

     

    Are there any other people who had ZERO or NO problems with any specific monitors?

    Can someone compile such monitors/laptops from this thread?

     

    Thanks guys!

    I hope we are all concerned enough about this to work together to raise awareness and figure out the solution.

     

  • by Zini316,

    Zini316 Zini316 Sep 18, 2014 5:05 AM in response to hydrogen08
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Sep 18, 2014 5:05 AM in response to hydrogen08

    Bad news yet again...i downloaded ios8 on my ipad 3 (never had an issue with ios7) last night and instantly started getting a stiff neck and then the headache. I'm hoping when I get home from work I'll have a different reaction considering I have a iphone 6 (upgrade from iphone5) arriving tomorrow.

     

    anyone else seeing these symptoms with the new ios?

  • by spprt,

    spprt spprt Sep 18, 2014 5:57 AM in response to Zini316
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Sep 18, 2014 5:57 AM in response to Zini316

    OH my, that's bad, I know how that feels because it happened to my iPad 4 before and it was finally fixed by iOS 7.1.2. That is the reason I won't upgrade to iOS 8 now. It's just to much of a risk, considering that I'm dependent of a device that gives me no eye-strain.

    If Apple would speak to us so we knew we could safely upgrade... But apparently they don't speak at all.

     

    You have to know that there is still time to manually install iOS 7.1.2. Not sure if the steps should be posted here. So a Google search will give you more information.But you have to act quickly, because in a few hours, little days if you're lucky, it won't be possible anymore. I'm just saying this because I really feel for you, I went through the same bad upgrade experience with iOS 7 a few months ago.

  • by Scott98981,

    Scott98981 Scott98981 Sep 18, 2014 6:12 AM in response to Zini316
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Notebooks
    Sep 18, 2014 6:12 AM in response to Zini316

    Same happened to me with my iPad 3. Never had an problem before. My iphone 5 is fine. Not sure what would have changed.

  • by Zini316,

    Zini316 Zini316 Sep 18, 2014 6:17 AM in response to Scott98981
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Sep 18, 2014 6:17 AM in response to Scott98981

    anyone know how to remove ios 8 off an ipad3?

  • by spprt,

    spprt spprt Sep 18, 2014 6:23 AM in response to Zini316
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Sep 18, 2014 6:23 AM in response to Zini316

    Do a  custom Google search for the last 24 hours and search for the terms:

     

    ios 8 downgrade

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