RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by hansennn,

    hansennn hansennn Jun 11, 2015 8:13 AM in response to Exandas
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 8:13 AM in response to Exandas

    Is Samsung grand duo cannot make headache ?i have try cheap chinese android phone with 400x800 resolution and also asus zenphone 5 with 1024 x 720 resolution but both give me headache just like when i use laptop or pc with led,no eyestrain just headache at the back of head if  i forced to use it for hours,I would have migraines and can be up to 2 days.i do not feel any eyestrain just headache and migraine, i cannot use android phone,i currently use blackberry javeline and even with my nokia 6600,i can read text for hours without headache.i think is depend on type led from factory because strangely For 4 years I have always used a netbook msi wind U130 with LED backlit and using it for hours and i never felt a headache or migraine,it's like the old type led production cannot make headache,can someone give me advice or solution ?sorry for my bad english

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Jun 11, 2015 8:23 AM in response to hansennn
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 8:23 AM in response to hansennn

    Hansenn,

     

    It's hard to say what will help you - because there are several causes of the headaches.

     

    My experience with the low-end Samsungs (here it's the Galaxy Core Prime, whereas where you are it's the Galaxy Core Duo) is that the screen is MUCH easier on my eyes but that I don't like FRC (temporal dither). Still, it's the best solution I've found "so far".

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Jun 11, 2015 8:26 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 8:26 AM in response to Gurm42

    Guys, thought I'd share another update on phones. I'm temporarily back to using the iPhone 4s, but had a chance to check out the Lancet.

     

    The screen is a little narrower than the Galaxy Core Prime, so the lower resolution "feels higher", if that makes any sense. It runs Windows and is quite snappy. MUCH better camera.

     

    It does still use some FRC. I could see it under the fluorescent lights at the Verizon store. I'm tempted to take it home and try it for a couple days just on principle, but then really I'm faced with the "do I prefer low-end Windows or low-end Google" question.

     

    I also spent some time with a Galaxy S4. After tweaking the screen it was really quite livable - I turned the brightness WAY down. I wonder when the transition was made to the Pentile display? It does have PWM but I am going to try out an app that supposedly turns that off under Android. If that works out, it might be a great phone for me... crazy.

  • by AMCarvalho,

    AMCarvalho AMCarvalho Jun 11, 2015 8:55 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 8:55 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hi everyone,

     

    I am writing here today just to give you an update.

     

    As I mention in one of my previous posts, I was about to return my rMBP 15" Nvidea, early 2015 because the 15 days of non-stop headaches and issues with my eyes. I did return by the end of the last month (I was under the 15 days return policy) and I got the newest rMBR 15" with AMD Radeon. I can tell that I DID NOT had any headaches or eyestrain at all using this new machine. I am running the same setup as before with 2 external screens + the MBP, using a app called Shades that controls the brightness (not using the OS adjustment that stays at 100%) for every one of the 3 screens individually to around 85%.

     

    With this new machine, under same resolution used as before (scaled to 1080p on both dell monitors with sRGB display color profile), I can notice that my standby screen image resolution is not degraded as before, as well the overall resolution, at least on my DELL monitors.

     

    Again, I have editing videos heavily for the past 2 week and everything seems to be fine now. Also, I am not saying that you should invest money on a new rMBP because as I saw here that different people are getting different results from different solutions, when they find one. So, don't go crazy selling yours before you visit a Apple store and try heavily the one they have on display.

     

    If I start feeling uncomfortable  again, I will be back to notify you all.

     

    Regards.

  • by hansennn,

    hansennn hansennn Jun 11, 2015 9:08 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 9:08 AM in response to Gurm42

    First thanks for reply,my headache trigger is not PWM because i already test with led PC/laptop/phone set to the max brightness and still get headache and i don't know about FRC (temporal dither) is it flicker ? if i watch hd movie sometime i get a little headache and someone in this thread mention about Heterophoria,and i think i have heterophoria because i have test by my self to close one eye and that eyes move itself like strasbismus ,tommorow i will try to find samsung low end with low screen resolution,i prefer grand duo because of price but i'm still doubt it's happen because of resolution.Actually i already desperate and envy my friend can use laptop or phone normally,if i use it just for 1-5 minute,my head get dizzy no eyestrain

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Jun 11, 2015 9:11 AM in response to AMCarvalho
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 9:11 AM in response to AMCarvalho

    AMHCarvalho,

     

    Can you confirm the version of Macbook (model) and the video card model... and maybe even get the EDID of the screen?

     

    I've been searching for a model of Macbook that is usable, and my work will buy me one if I ask, so... if we can replicate this it's a big deal for everyone. I wonder if Apple finally fixed the temporal dithering? Because that's the only thing I can imagine was your problem, since you had the nVidia chip!

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Jun 11, 2015 9:12 AM in response to hansennn
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 9:12 AM in response to hansennn

    hansennn,

     

    The resolution isn't the problem, the type of display is. But what happens is that the low-end units use older display tech which is more tolerable to some eyes - mine included. Give it a try at the store for 10-15 minutes.

  • by hansennn,

    hansennn hansennn Jun 11, 2015 9:40 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 9:40 AM in response to Gurm42

    Yes i think you right,it's explain why i can use my msi netbook u 130 led (first generation led netbook 2009-2010) without a problem it's not a led or lcd but it's about the type of display or display tech.One i notice is my msi netbook u 130 led the white colour is real white (i don't know how to explain to you but the white is pure white not white yellowish or white bluish )but other laptop/phone that i have check the colour of white is either yellowish or bluish.i don't know if this is a diffrent type of led from factory but the specification my netbook and other laptop are mention same type of led.If only we know what type of this led that tolerable to our eyes,it's make easier for us to find the right laptop or phone

  • by FNP7,

    FNP7 FNP7 Jun 11, 2015 12:10 PM in response to hansennn
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 12:10 PM in response to hansennn

    In terms of heterophoria: my optician found that I suffer from a latent heterophoria, which causes problem when my eyes become tired (as opposed to straightaway). I was then prescribed some special glasses with 'prism' lenses and tried them out for a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, the eye strain I experience when using my MBP (Mid 2009 with NVIDIA graphics card) with the glasses was the same as always. I get the pain from using the in-built display and external LED displays, but my external CCFL monitor with the MBP hooked up to it is useable for me.

  • by AMCarvalho,

    AMCarvalho AMCarvalho Jun 11, 2015 12:11 PM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 12:11 PM in response to Gurm42

    Gurm42,

     

    Here we go... That's what I got...

     

    Screen Shot 2015-06-11 at 12.18.40 PM.png

     

    Hardware Overview:

     

      Model Name: MacBook Pro

      Model Identifier: MacBookPro11,5

      Processor Name: Intel Core i7

      Processor Speed: 2.5 GHz

      Number of Processors: 1

      Total Number of Cores: 4

      L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB

      L3 Cache: 6 MB

      Memory: 16 GB

      Boot ROM Version: MBP114.0172.B00

      SMC Version (system): 2.30f1

     

    AMD Radeon R9 M370X:

     

      Chipset Model: AMD Radeon R9 M370X

      Type: GPU

      Bus: PCIe

      PCIe Lane Width: x8

      VRAM (Total): 2048 MB

      Vendor: ATI (0x1002)

      Device ID: 0x6821

      Revision ID: 0x0083

      ROM Revision: 113-C5670E-777

      gMux Version: 4.0.20 [3.2.8]

      EFI Driver Version: 01.00.777

      Displays:

    Color LCD:

      Display Type: Retina LCD

      Resolution: 2880 x 1800 Retina

      Retina: Yes

      Pixel Depth: 32-Bit Color (ARGB8888)

      Mirror: Off

      Online: Yes

      Built-In: Yes

     

     

    Intel Iris Pro:

     

      Chipset Model: Intel Iris Pro

      Type: GPU

      Bus: Built-In

      VRAM (Dynamic, Max): 1536 MB

      Vendor: Intel (0x8086)

      Device ID: 0x0d26

      Revision ID: 0x0008

      gMux Version: 4.0.20 [3.2.8]

  • by FNP7,

    FNP7 FNP7 Jun 11, 2015 12:15 PM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 11, 2015 12:15 PM in response to Gurm42

    I don't know if it'd be any good for you, Gurm 42, but I use a Moto X 2013 (OLED, 720p) with no problems. I tried a Google Nexus 6 (OLED, higher pixel density), but experienced eyestrain/ headache, and so returned it. I'm hoping the next iteration of the Moto X might be useable for me, but am not holding my breath.

  • by hansennn,

    hansennn hansennn Jun 12, 2015 1:08 AM in response to FNP7
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 12, 2015 1:08 AM in response to FNP7

    From your information,i think it's true that high resolution and higher pixel density or high end phone led doesn't always make headache,its depend on luck if we can find the right one (in my case i'm find using netbook msi u130 with led backlite but until now i have not found the right android phone and still using blackberry but it's lagging and the screen is too small for my work,i use for chat only),i cannot find samsung grand duo or  core duo in my local store,they said that the product is already discontinue so tomorrow i will go to second hand phone store,hope i'm lucky to find it or maybe  in the future everyone can list the phone or laptop that doesn't make headache

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Jun 12, 2015 4:29 AM in response to hansennn
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Jun 12, 2015 4:29 AM in response to hansennn

    It's true that it isn't the resolution per se.

     

    My friend's HTC One (m7, AT&T) is a 1080p unit which is usable for short periods without discomfort. The prior unit he had, which is an HTC One X, was a 720p unit with which I had perfect success.

     

    I have a Samsung Galaxy S4 which is 1080p and isn't too bad for just checking mail.

     

    Someone else on here said they used a Moto X (1st Gen) with no trouble.

     

    These are all 2012-2013 units. And thus very hard to find now.

  • by SimonStokes,

    SimonStokes SimonStokes Jun 15, 2015 11:02 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 15, 2015 11:02 AM in response to Gurm42

    AMCarvalho - thank you for the information, always good to hear of someone finding success and I'm hoping that the new rMBP with the R9 chip might make a difference. I know that I can't use my brother's rMBP with an Nvidia chip in it for more than a few without feeling nauseous before developing headache and ultimately migraine symptoms.

     

    Gurm42 - have you got your employer to pick you up the Mid-2015 R9 model yet? Would be very curious to hear how you get on as I think we're on the same page symptoms-wise. I'll try to pop into an Apple store and check it out too. If this isn't the answer then we need to get this Kickstarter on the go.

  • by CT,

    CT CT Apr 5, 2016 11:02 PM in response to FNP7
    Level 6 (17,883 points)
    Notebooks
    Apr 5, 2016 11:02 PM in response to FNP7

    <Image Edited by Host>

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