Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

I just checked what we had in stock here. We got in a mid-2015 but it was the one with Iris only. It was ... better than before, but not something I'd want to use for hours on end. 5 minutes wasn't too bad. I'm going to have the helpdesk guys order a R9 the next time someone wants a 15" pro (this week, I think) and see how it is.

Gurm42 and  AMCarvalho could you provide display model/code of your devices?

Will do so once we get in one of the new discrete Radeon units.

That is, unless CT wants to post more degrading GIFs which will undoubtedly end in my being banned from the forums. Y'know, because getting upset over being abused is apparently a worse crime in Apple's mind than being abused.

By the way, I did take the time to call and notify Applecare that abuse was occurring in a forum post dedicated to a medical issue. That seems, for some reason, to be uncool with the ADA. Those folks take some exception to people making fun of the visually impaired, and to the visually impaired being punished for it.

Apple Support Communities Use Agreement 

Thank you, that was super informative. One thing though, I missed the part of that agreement where it says "it's ok to post abusive images mocking people with health problems". Which section was that in?

Probably in the section where 'x-ray specs cartoons' or similar likeness thereof, are covered.

I'd suspect this to be in the invisible section about 'humor, cultural diversity, art appreciation

& an ability to laugh at the human condition' even if the laughable event is a fool in the mirror.

Since items posted are seldom permanent, the rules can be used to trim the chaff or pull a

few weeds. The last image posted by CT was likely done in humor, even if you don't see it.

To argue and complain is also noted to be reason to pull a few posts. Some get removed

by mistake, while others may be left due to a chance of interpretive differences.

However, I've not been following any thread in this ASC, in the 10+ years of occasional use.

There have been much worse items pointed at me than what you're upset about... a few only

known after gaining access to a 'lounge' area where comments about me were later found.

There are many items I don't consider worthy of getting upset about, and others where if I

were to reply, the cut would be as sharp as a knife.

So far there hasn't been any evidence to point an extreme instance of abuse, and if CT or

anyone accidentally hit upon a topic while not knowing some aspect of it personally affected

your health, it would most likely be by accident. And if you find offense in a cartoon, then it

may be you are reactive to an unnecessarily harsh degree.

The excessive effects of display brightness over the span of a large number of product users

is likely to vary, as evidenced by the length and breadth of those brought up in this thread. I

do not see any reason to take any reply as a personal affront, yet I know well about bullying.

Sorry that you've had a few unpleasant experiences to include some interaction in these ASC

discussion forums and sometimes it's better to reply to an apparent affront, with a kind word

since you may find the original item was not necessarily a slight to you personally.

In any event...

Good luck & happy computing!

I thought about this carefully before replying.

This thread is full of people - real people, Apple customers. Many/most of them/us have failing eyesight, advancing age, neurological problems, or a combination thereof.

And they have one overriding thing in common - they've been dismissed, laughed at, ridiculed, and disbelieved by everyone. Coworkers, family, friends, and ESPECIALLY Apple's employees and representatives. They've all heard a million times "it's all in your head", "it doesn't exist", "go see an eye doctor", "take frequent breaks". None of that is helpful, and after a while it isn't funny either.

One funny post? Fine. A recurring pattern of showing up, and doing nothing but drop a rude GIF? Not fine. ESPECIALLY when the individual in question has spent literally a COUPLE YEARS following the thread off and on, and KNOWS that nobody in here is amused by "you're crazy and need some Visine" jokes.

CT's posts, over the past year (or two), have included NO commentary, NO helpful suggestions, NO text at all - just:

- X Ray Specs (repeatedly)

- Jack Nicholson from the shining with giant bloodshot bulging eyes (repeatedly)

- A dog with giant bulging eyes

And you, sir, for good or ill? Posted "this helped me" in some kind of weird "level 6 user" back-patting. What's up with that? How did it help you to see a fellow high-level user being condescending towards a bunch of relatively desperate people with health issues? I don't know how the mental process works - perhaps it's "oh man look at all these crazy people who think that Apple displays are hurting their eyes... it's been six months since I tweaked them"? I just can't imagine. Maybe you didn't read the 151 pages of this thread (who would?) before going "hey that's pretty funny let me hit 'like' on it". I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But my ire with the original post(s) stands.

We're pretty used to being ignored, and told that we're crazy. But mockery from the most official-looking people (we all know you aren't from Apple, but since Apple's policy is "ignore everyone and build whatever we want", you'll have to do...) to ever pay ANY kind of attention to this thread? That's something else, and it stings.

So this is my second-ever post here, and I'm chiming in for the sole sake of giving 100% full support to Gurm42. I was one of those crazy enough to read all 2,256 replies in this thread up to this point. I did it slowly over the matter of months.

Gurm is absolutely correct that this individual that goes by "CT" has contributed absolutely nothing positive to this thread but spamming it with images mocking the sufferers of the issue at hand. This isn't an issue of not being able to take a joke either. It's the fact that these postings just simply fail to be funny or amusing. The fact that they are being done repeatedly as a jab to those that are posting their experiences here proves that the intent is not out of comedy, but done so maliciously.

At best, it can be considered spam

At worst, it's simply harassment

Yes, I know the saying "don't feed the trolls" holds true once again, but some form of responsible moderation would be appreciated. It's hard to believe that somebody is so willing to waste their precious fleeting time on planet Earth making fun of people having struggles with their health. I would advise this person to focus on being a more productive person to society instead.

Since I've been registered here since 2003 and have seen significant changes in structure, content,

methodology, applications, products, personnel, and several other things across global society in

general, there has been a steady decrease in the level of effort it takes for some persons to just

shine it on, and move on. You could do it. I have. And I've bothered to learn quite a bit across

many different subjects, but not from single-topic searches; from reading & memorizing books.

The best method to express an interest in a change of product, to address a problem that may

be fixed in hardware or software, or in presentation, is by use of Apple feedback pages on site:

• Apple Feedback

Tell us how we’re doing. Select the appropriate feedback option

(we read everything, but can’t always respond):

=°=°=°=°=°=°=°=°=°=

I have read most of the older threads in these discussions at some point or another; however it is

not a requirement to recite them by chapter and verses, nor it that the case in some zealot circles

of tribal cult, though it may be in those of a fantasy political following. There is nothing wrong with

a sense of humor, and the higher evolved persons learn to laugh when they can't change anything

or if the change is the cause of the problem. Sometimes a cure is worse than the first problem.

However this thread has gone on for several years and across many different builds of Apple product.

Implications in a few replies that suggest the problem is a user issue and not a product one, can be

best addressed by submitting comment to (product) Feedback - Apple: http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Different technologies, and designs have come and gone. If you were to use the Apple Feedback areas

and add comments on a creative answer instead of looking through dust for a few morsels or nuggets,

then perhaps a more positive change in the product and user satisfaction may result. An I suggest you

try that angle instead of running the content of this thread through a spell-checker or test for continuity

of concept across the duration of its existence.

I've been here awhile, but don't care if I stay or not. Otherwise, had I a perfect universe and nothing to

do but be a fan-boy, I would not have lived in a tiny Alaskan village where hauling water and using out

door plumbing, chopping ice of a mostly-frozen spring in hope of finding water (so as to not use fuel to

melt snow or ice) would not have been part of my life experience. And you could learn a lot from that.

I've not been here for gathering wealth, but to learn about life. I don't need these toys to do that, either.

However, I am not without health issues; but do not expect a Health App to cure or monitor satisfactorily.

At this point, I'd prefer to see certain lengthy topic threads capped and not go on almost indefinitely.

This would be among about 80 in number which have some historical basis in recording an issue,

but no traction toward a cure will be possible if nobody who posts here with an issue, bothers to go

and submit a Feedback comment to Apple directly. And do not expect a reply, unless you're lucky.

In any event...

Good luck & happy computing!

PS: should I click on item below someone else's post, is of no concern to you. I may say Hi

and speak nice to a tethered dog who'd like to bite me big time, but I'm not voting for it...

Nor am I to suggest a moderator to remove thrown stones. Try to get along. Life is Short.

I very much regret having to come back here and give this unfortunate update, but my primary symptoms have returned after about 10 months of relief by changing a few monitor settings. I gave a (rather long) post last Christmas Eve believing that excessive blue light was the root cause of my discomfort. My post was towards the bottom of page 144 here:

Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

My symptoms originally hit without warning on August 25th, 2012 after a lot of computer use at work and at home. The symptoms are as follows:

- Photophobia / light sensitivity

- Aching / cramping eyes

- Tension / visual headaches

- Nausea / motion- or sea-sickness

I have been using the Dell UltraSharp U2410 both at work and at home, and had it at the original out-of-box default settings the whole time. Around May 2014, I finally gained some relief after changing the following settings:

- Reducing brightness from 50% --> 0% (causing maximum PWM flicker)

- Changing color temperature from Standard --> Warm

- Installing f.lux to further reduce color temperature from 6500K --> 5000K

It took almost 2 weeks to notice any difference at all (cramped eye muscles take a while to settle down I guess), but eventually it almost seemed like the issue was a non-factor! I was able to work a 40+ hour work week without crossing the threshold that would make all the symptoms come on. In fact, I worked quite a bit of overtime at my job as a server administrator, and had quite an out-of-the-park performance review during that time that I was not plagued by this issue. People thought my improvement was due to increased effort, but there was no extra effort required. I was simply allowed to work comfortably for the first time in years.

Then, for some reason at the end of March this year, all the symptoms came back, seemingly as bad as ever. These monitor settings that provided me with so much relief the previous 10 months stopped working.

In April, I ordered a pair of prescription BluTech Lenses, which are yellow-tinted, and block violet-blue light. After experimenting for nearly a month, it was hard to see any benefit. My experiment may have been skewed though, because I seemed to have a hard time getting used to the prescription, despite it only being off by a 1/4 diopter in both eyes. I may explore this idea again, but try different blue-blocking screen filters instead.

In May, I consulted an ophthalmologist, who in less than five minutes said they didn't know and couldn't help me (at least they were honest), as well as my lifetime optometrist. Both suggested that my eyes appeared to be healthy, and that we might be looking for the root cause in the wrong place. Both suggested a neurological consultation, which I have set up, and I'm currently waiting for.

I am also still very sensitive to LCDs lit by an LED backlight. My eyes/brain/body very much prefer an LCD lit by the older CCFL backlight. In early February this year, I worked with a colleague who had a bright LED monitor for a few minutes. I felt drained and overwhelmed while doing so, despite having no knowledge of the display type. A sharp eye ache started, followed by a horrific headache (worst I've ever recorded). The next 4 days were basically a write-off for me, and it took that long to finally get back to how I felt before the exposure.

Another interesting story is when I went to a friend's house who had dual monitors. The one on the left looked nice and dim, with warm inviting colors, and the one of the right looked bright with very harsh cool colors. My friend told me the monitor on the left was an LCD, and the one of the right was an LED, and given how they looked, I believed him. We used both monitors to view a bunch of photographs for about an hour, before my friend turned to me and stated "Funny how you've lasted a whole hour with this LED of mine, when before you said you could only last a few minutes." I replied with "Yeah, that would be amazing, if it were actually an LED". He replied with "Of course it is, just look at it". I replied with "It may look like one, but it's not. Check the model number". Once he did, he found out that both his monitors were LCDs, it's just the settings were different. I had successfully performed the double-blind placebo test. My body was able to tell the difference.

Unfortunately, I feel like I'm back to square one. I have no idea why I seem to have such an abnormal hyper-sensitivity to LED light sources. Even using an LCD will eventually bring on symptoms, it just takes a lot longer. It's entirely possible I'm dealing with two distinct and separate issues (pure chronic overuse of digital displays, and sensitivity to LED).

I will return with any future updates, should they come.

So a quick update - I haven't gotten in the new Macbook Pro yet (CDW shipped us last year's model instead... we sent it back) so I can't give a definitive answer on that, yet. However, I've been experimenting with a lot of phones lately. Gawd, do my eyes hurt.

I've determined DEFINITIVELY that the iPhone 5... is hard to look at. Not impossible, but hard. They definitely changed screens from the 4s. It's a second-generation retina, and it DEFINITELY has FRC/Temporo-Spatial Dithering. I can see it pretty clearly in the new Fallout Shelter game from Bethesda (which is a great game if you like the Fallout series, btw). I knew it was unlikely that they magically made a retina have a higher color gamut from one generation to the next, and this pretty much cinches it. I'm investigating whether there is a possibility to control something like dithering in the kernel level if the phone is jailbroken, but I'm not holding out much hope.

The iPhone 6... I have mixed reactions to. Some models seem worse than others, I don't know if they are sourcing them from different places. My friend's 6+ was marginally acceptable the other day, at least for short periods, much like the 5. However the loaner 6 we have at work is impossible to look at for more than a minute without immediate eyestrain.

I grabbed an HTC One M7 (Verizon) because I really liked the screen on another friend's AT&T HTC One. It was... ok. Not great, and hours of use induced hours of eyestrain. I temporarily tried an HTC One M8 (Verizon), which is an EXCELLENT phone in every way... except the screen.

I've found that there are different classes of terrible for me. Let me explain:

- Lensing/Glass effect: In some phones, such as the LG G4, Samsung S6 Edge, or Sony XPeria Z3, as well as the HTC Desire 612 and the iPhone 6... the screen is "lensed" in order to make it "pop". This lensing effect induces IMMEDIATE eyestrain for me regardless of settings, filters, etc.

- FRC/Temporal Dither: In other phones, such as the Galaxy Core Prime and the LG Lancet, extremely cheap screens are being used. Instead of just admitting that the screens are low-color screens, Samsung and LG are marketing them as "millions of colors" (on a $100 phone? yeah right!) and using FRC to produce more colors. Ironically, the iPhone 5/5s/5c ALSO fall into this category, or at least some of them do. I suspect Apple has SOME Retina displays that are capable of really producing 8-bit color and some that are only 6-bit, and that the controller chip does FRC to compensate, just like on Macbooks.

- PWM: Pretty much every OLED phone out there does PWM. The Galaxy S series does it pretty drastically. This makes the S6 pretty much the worst phone ever, as it does lensing AND PWM. I can tolerate a Galaxy S4 if I put it on full bright and then control brightness with software, but I suspect this will kill the battery. (Further experimentation needed...)

- Unknown/BlueLight/Resolution/???: Then there's the "why is this phone which is otherwise pretty ok to look at hurting my eyes" question. This is the million dollar question. When you take a phone like an HTC M8 or LG G3 which has no lensing, no PWM, no FRC (that I know of) and I still can't look at it for very long... it's very frustrating.

I'm at a loss. My iPhone 4s is dead, and while I could try to transition all my stuff to a new 4s... that seems like a losing proposition. So I'm going to try to make do with SOMETHING. The phone I've been able to tolerate longest has been the iPhone 5 or the Galaxy Core Prime, so I suppose it's going to be one of those.

Anyone else have thoughts here?

MagnuM396 - Sorry to hear your problem came back, that's very strange that the same settings have caused a change in your situation, I'm at a loss of what to suggest here.

Gurm42 - I've had to settle with the iPhone 5 for now which I can use for 10-15 mins every couple of hours without getting severe symptoms. Some of the Windows Phones look easy on my eyes but I've not had a chance to test them ongoing.

Update from me - I've pretty much cut the Macbook out of my life unless absolutely necessary. It's meant changing my job essentially as I can no longer teach people music production using them, but I feel a lot better for it. The constant nausea, headaches and migraines were really getting to me so it had to go. I'm interested in trying the new R9 model to see how I get on as I really need to be using OSX for a lot of what I do.

In the meantime, a few days ago I picked up a cheap desktop PC to use at home - Acer Aspire X3995. I've been using an old desktop I cobbled together from parts I had lying around with absolutely no problems but it was a bit old and slow so I upgraded.

However, this PC uses onboard graphics (Intel HD) and I can report that on the same monitor that I was using with the last PC I'm back to having the exact same symptoms as I get from my Macbook. Since I use a PC in the studio without issue for 12 hours a day (running on a Nvidia GTX285 graphics card) I'm going to try sticking an Nvidia card into this new Acer to see if that kills the problem, in which case I can put it down in this instance to the Intel HD graphics chip.

I'll report back next week with any information, in the meantime let's keep this on-topic and please remember to post to update your current situations. I'm still reading this with great interest and I know a lot of others are too. We'll get there..

Simon,

I'm going to take a closer look at the LG Lancet and Lumia 735 this weekend.

The Lancet is a low-res phone, from first glance it didn't cause any immediate eyestrain but DOES have substantial temporal dithering (which leads to longer term but less severe eyestrain) and VERY lousy viewing angles. Plus it suffers from the bane of all low-res smartphones, which is the fact that EVERYTHING is designed for 540p and up phones now, which means any 400p or 480p phone will have problems rendering small fonts and fine lines. But it's otherwise a fine little phone, the camera is capable and they actually packed one of the best mid-range processors available into it.

The Lumia 735 is a longshot, I normally HATE Lumia phones. But it's an OLED at only 720p on a 4.7" screen, which means the pixel density is pretty low. At lower brightness levels it MIGHT be tolerable. And in spite of the mid-spec CPU it is otherwise a kickass device.

My only other potential options now are the iPhone 5 (which like you I can tolerate as long as I don't spend a long time on it) or the Galaxy Core Prime (which has pretty bad Temporal Dithering but is otherwise pain-free as long as I don't use it for a long time).

I've actually had some relief the last 2 weeks thankfully. A Canada Day, a few summer BBQs, and other ways to find a bit of rest from digital displays throughout the week can work wonders I guess! Around the March timeframe when my issues resurfaced with a vengeance, I was doing a looooot of writing on the computer. All that focusing on tiny text may have just been too much of a strain.

My issue definitely seems cumulative. During a typical work week, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday I will barely notice I have an issue at all. Around Thursday it will usually start, and then Friday is often hard to push through. Also, if I use my computer for quite a few hours in the evening after a full day of work, my eyes will literally creak the next morning when I wake up (you can hear it too!) I guess my challenge is to find ways to cut down on this cumulative strain, and find the displays that my eyes/brain/body like using the most.

I would ask the question of everybody here that is reporting an issue, and be honest: how many hours a day do you look at some sort of digital display (phone, tablet, PC, etc)? With my combination of work as a server admin and my being a techie in general even outside of work, I am usually pushing 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's quite a bit to ask of your visual system I'm sure! Although, everyone in the 21st century seems to be doing it these days, and I don't really hear of too many reporting issues like ours.

I believe everybody's issue is slightly different in its own way. Gurm, I'm quite intrigued by the results that you bring forward. The fact that some cell phones are quite tolerable to you (e.g. iPhone 4S) while so many others are not suggests that your issue is not a visual issue. You are likely holding all these phones the same viewing distance each and every time to keep the test consistent. It seems a bit farfetched that something as obscure as temporal dithering is giving you so much grief, but you never know! An important question I meant to ask you is: do you have any problems with print or books? Can you read a book or novel for hours and hours without issue? What about an Amazon Kindle as well?

I find the iPhone 5 - which I'm currently using - mostly tolerable for the few minutes I need to glance at it each day. The most I can stand reading it constantly is about 1 hour tops. One thing I'm considering as an experiment is a blue-blocking filter for it. Here's one I'm eying:

https://www.lowbluelights.com/detail.asp?id=110

I'm curious if you were to also introduce this into your experimentation how it would affect your results (if at all)

Lots of questions to answer here.

>The fact that some cell phones are quite tolerable to you (e.g. iPhone 4S) while so many others are

>not suggests that your issue is not a visual issue.

I fail to follow your logic here. It seems to me that it IS a visual issue. No cell phone ever bothered me until they started using PWM and Dithering and blue LED's. Right around 2012. I used a TON of different phones, and never had an issue.

>You are likely holding all these phones the same viewing distance each and every time to keep the test consistent.

No, actually. I'm holding them at the distance that text is clear on them. On the big screen models I turn the font up. The iPhones have to be closer since they are smaller screens.

>It seems a bit farfetched that something as obscure as temporal dithering is giving you so much grief, but you never know!

Does it? On my desktop computer I can swap my nVidia card for a Radeon and have eyestrain within minutes. The difference? Temporal dithering is on for the Radeon. But is it the dithering itself? Or some combination of dithering and LED? Hard to say, but on my shiny 60" plasma TV (which is great with Blu Ray and my XBox360) my XBox One is hard to look at - because it comes with a Radeon chip and Temporal Dithering turned on by default.

>An important question I meant to ask you is: do you have any problems with print or books?

>Can you read a book or novel for hours and hours without issue? What about an Amazon Kindle as well?

I can read books for days on end without a single issue, either with or without my glasses, with contacts in, on a cloudy day or a bright day. Never a single problem except when under a blue-ish light (like "Reveal" or LED).

Kindle... the unlit ones are no problem. The backlit ones (such as paperwhite) tend to use blue LED's and hurt.

I have definitely got multiple issues going on.

.....

.....

One interesting new development is that my new progressive glasses come with Varilux lenses and Crizal Prevencia coating. Everything on a computer or phone screen looks a little more yellow with them on, because of the amount of blue light they block. With them on, the Samsung Super AMOLED phones are much more tolerable. So I think that for sure we're all experiencing a massive blue light crush here.

I tried a couple "clear" Blue Light films and they were worthless. However, matte ones or ones that actually have a yellowish cast may very well help. I'd be curious to know.