RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

Close

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

  • All replies
  • Helpful answers

first Previous Page 159 of 160 last Next
  • by azure8,

    azure8 azure8 Mar 23, 2016 6:34 AM in response to SimonStokes
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Mar 23, 2016 6:34 AM in response to SimonStokes

    Simon, I used the the installer that you posted on the other website.

     

    Not sure how to check if it was working or not, but it didn't help at all.

  • by MagnuM396,

    MagnuM396 MagnuM396 Mar 28, 2016 6:38 PM in response to azure8
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Mar 28, 2016 6:38 PM in response to azure8

    I've noticed activity really drop off in this thread in the past little while. Hopefully you all aren't giving up!

     

    There still seems to be quite a bit of speculation instead of solutions. Having anyone come back with any form of a solution is what people are really looking for. I have given a partial one on an earlier page about a year ago, but since our eyes all hurt, I'll post the tl;dr version!

     

     

    Symptom Date Range: August 25, 2012 -- present day

    Symptoms:


    - Photophobia / light sensitivity

    - Aching / cramping eyes

    - Tension / visual headaches

    - Nausea / motion- or sea-sickness

     

    Occupation: Server Administrator

    Average VDU usage per week (work + home): 60 hours


    Computer Monitor Used (work & home): Dell UltraSharp U2410

    Cellphone Used: iPhone 6S+

     

    Partial Solution: (The following steps likely saved my career in IT about a year ago)

     

    - Reducing brightness from 50% --> 0% (causing maximum PWM flicker)

    - Changing color temperature from Standard --> Warm

    - Installing f.lux to further reduce color temperature from 6500K --> 5000K

     

    Official Diagnosis: Convergence Insufficiency & Accommodative insufficiency - (made by optometrist)

    Suggested Diagnosis: Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome (a.k.a. Irlen Syndrome) - (made by Irlen consultant)

     

     

    Causation Theory:

     

    I've suffered long enough and gone through enough trial and error to eventually learn a thing or two about what seems to bring on my symptoms. Exposure to an LED backlight will cause a sharp pinching ache in both my eyeballs in minutes or even seconds. It would be akin to turning on your iPhone flashlight and staring directly into it. That's how it feels at almost every brightness level (including 0%). Since the luminescence seems to be rated about the same as my Dell U2410 (CCFL), my causation theory for this is the wavelength of light emitted by LEDs, which is significantly more blue-shifted. My theory is that some of us are sensitive to HEV (High Energy Visible Light), while the majority of the population has no symptoms. This is just my layman theory, and I currently don't have any scientific facts to back that claim up. More clues were gained when I got a "flicker-free" LED monitor from Ben-Q (no PWM), and my issues got worse, even at the lowest brightness levels. So, contrary to the title of this thread, pulse-width modulation (PWM) can be a red-herring for some of us out there, but remember that everybody's case is different!

     

    My other causation theory is just pure overuse, plain and simple. That's why I posted my occupation and amount of hours spent on a digital display above. I have noticed that my eyes are sensitive to all forms of light after overtaxing the eyes after excessive reading, whether that is sunlight or a monitor backlight. I have also experienced the same type of eye strain when reading a lot of print, such as studying for an exam, or reading a product manual. Periods of consecutive rest will somewhat improve symptoms, while consecutive days of heavy usage will make the issues resurface. Reading smaller text, like emails or log files, will bring the issues on quicker as well, which is why I suggest enlarging text wherever possible (Ctrl + Mouse Wheel Up)

     

    So those are my two prime suspects at this time: wavelengths of light viewed (blue-light from LEDs), and constant overuse of the eyes in close-work. I can reproduce my symptoms by staring at a bright LED monitor for a few minutes, or by an extended reading session. I did about 2 years of binocular vision therapy to try to help the "convergence insufficiency & accommodative insufficiency", and was eventually able to score good enough numbers to "graduate". I still have the symptoms described at the top, but after the monitor settings changes I did, I can go much longer before those symptoms come on.

     

    Another hint to score in the "overuse" camp is the fact that I developed an RSI (repetitive strain injury) in both wrists in August 2015 from overuse in typing! I'm currently attending physiotherapy for it, but after all this time, it still has not healed up. I have to wear two heavy-duty wrist splints just to type on a freaking keyboard! I'm not sure how many more hints my body can throw at me that I use computers way too much overall! =p

     

    I'll share any more discoveries I find going forward, should they come!

  • by BobTheFisherman,

    BobTheFisherman BobTheFisherman Mar 28, 2016 7:00 PM in response to MagnuM396
    Level 6 (15,751 points)
    Mar 28, 2016 7:00 PM in response to MagnuM396

    MagnuM396 wrote:

     

    I've noticed activity really drop off in this thread in the past little while. Hopefully you all aren't giving up!

     

    There still seems to be quite a bit of speculation instead of solutions. Having anyone come back with any form of a solution is what people are really looking for. I have given a partial one on an earlier page about a year ago, but since our eyes all hurt, I'll post the tl;dr version!

     

     

     

    No wonder activity has dropped off, this thread was started in 2008. If after 8 years a solution has not been posted here I doubt one will be forthcoming. The best advice in this thread is to visit an eye specialist. Certainly you don't want to take medical advice from a stranger in a forum thread.

  • by Slacor,

    Slacor Slacor Mar 29, 2016 12:06 PM in response to SimonStokes
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Mar 29, 2016 12:06 PM in response to SimonStokes

    On another note - I found a great forum that's just getting started relating to all our troubles here: https://ledstrain.org/. Since you can narrow down posts by temporal dithering / pwm then it might be a more useful format for people than this massive thread!

     

    That is the intention of the forum

     

    No wonder activity has dropped off, this thread was started in 2008. If after 8 years a solution has not been posted here I doubt one will be forthcoming. The best advice in this thread is to visit an eye specialist. Certainly you don't want to take medical advice from a stranger in a forum thread.

     

    1st step is identifying there is a issue. That's been difficult with a lot of extra info being potential causes (having another light on, glasses, glare, etc). This has been true for numerous other threads.

    Identifying what's causing it and what actually works follows from that. There has been a lot of possible solutions, but there is a lot of guessing going on too. https://ledstrain.org might be diverging some of it, mostly created because a linear 2300 post thread from 2008 was too confusing to easily follow, plus I don't use Apple stuff :s This is something that affects lightbulbs, TV's, flashlights, phones, laptops, monitors, etc. Not to mention possible multiple causes with PWN, dithering, etc.

    Because of people in this thread and that forum, I now have a laptop I can use, along with possible options for phones, tablets, etc.

     

    Hopefully you all aren't giving up!

     

    Most definitely not

     

    I'm not interested in "take medical advice from a stranger", but I am and have been interested in what works for others with surprisingly similar symptoms. I did visit a eye specialist but I basically was told nothing is wrong. Still, visiting one is a good idea.

  • by ensete,

    ensete ensete May 25, 2016 7:42 AM in response to Slacor
    Level 1 (4 points)
    May 25, 2016 7:42 AM in response to Slacor

    Just found this thread, great resource. I am an LED and CFL migraine sufferer searching for a solution to the pain caused by :ED bulbs. I will check out the varius links here. I started a sub on reddit, /r/lightsensitive, for people to post their experiences and leanings from. I will be xposting a lot of this content there, feel free to come by and contribute as well

  • by reagandev,

    reagandev reagandev Jun 21, 2016 6:37 PM in response to MagnuM396
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Jun 21, 2016 6:37 PM in response to MagnuM396

    HI! i had all your symptoms & the dell u2414h (overclocked to 75hz)+ an nvidia graphics card (better dithering supposedly) did the trick for me. works acceptably well with my macbook air too.. now to get rid of my iphone and cameras..

  • by LovesDogs0415,

    LovesDogs0415 LovesDogs0415 Jul 14, 2016 7:43 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Jul 14, 2016 7:43 AM in response to RMartin111

    Has anyone had any experience with the screen on the new iPad Air 2?  It is advertised to have glare screen and some enhancements to support viewing.   Any experiences you can share.  Thank you.

  • by samueljlevine,

    samueljlevine samueljlevine Jul 27, 2016 11:08 AM in response to Slacor
    Level 1 (9 points)
    Jul 27, 2016 11:08 AM in response to Slacor

    I was experiencing difficulty reading the display on my 27 inch iMAC, particularly in the evening.  I used the Accessibility tweaks to boost contrast on my display.  That helped some but when I had cataract surgery in my right eye all the lights came on.  Now I can see even the smallest type and the print in grey just fine.  My vision was the problem, not my MAC.  My eye doctor (surgeon) reported that I have 20 / 20 in my right eye now but need reading glasses for close work.  Until I do that I will just back off and enjoy a beautiful high contrast display.

     

    The human brain is so amazing.  Mine was pushing all the heavy work onto my left eye, which has a milder cataract, and I kept moving closer and closer to the screen.  When you can't see the screen clearly ask someone else if it looks clear to them.  You, too, might need to see the eye doctor.

  • by reagandev,

    reagandev reagandev Aug 2, 2016 7:45 AM in response to kvoth
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Aug 2, 2016 7:45 AM in response to kvoth

    thanks for the tip! earplugs definitely noticeably improve things for me. we really have to figure out ways to adapt our brains/eyes I guess as we cant really avoid led traffic lights and headlights..

     

    now somebody try this crazy EMDR thing and report back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DALbwI7m1vM

  • by rajan102,

    rajan102 rajan102 Aug 3, 2016 1:27 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Aug 3, 2016 1:27 AM in response to RMartin111

    i am also suffering from same problem.i find useless buying mac book pro.my eye achs severely.apple has to take notice of this problem and remove this problem.i now find waste of money buying mac.

  • by samueljlevine,

    samueljlevine samueljlevine Aug 3, 2016 6:42 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (9 points)
    Aug 3, 2016 6:42 AM in response to RMartin111

    The point is ..... It is not the fault of a properly operating (not broken) Mac Book or iMAC.  It is your eyes and/or corrective lenses.  You, not your computer, need to see a qualified eye doctor.  I did and after cataract surgery my iMac was sharp as a tack, as if by magic.

  • by ethan1el,

    ethan1el ethan1el Aug 13, 2016 1:48 AM in response to samueljlevine
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Aug 13, 2016 1:48 AM in response to samueljlevine

    You are wrong. It is a Macbook screen problem.

     

    For 13 years I worked as a developer on windows systems with matte screens.

     

    1 month ago I switched from my matte screen Asus laptop and PC to a Macbook Pro Retina 2015 15'. Slowly, after around 1 week I've noticed changes in vision. I started seeing much worse at dusk and night time. My eyes started to hurt immensely.

     

    Just for a test, I put my Macbook Pro away and switched back to my Asus laptop for 2 days. Eye pain went away immediately. This is my second day without a MBP, but even last night I could see much better.

     

    Apple IS making people blind.

  • by CT,

    CT CT Aug 13, 2016 6:00 AM in response to ethan1el
    Level 6 (17,883 points)
    Notebooks
    Aug 13, 2016 6:00 AM in response to ethan1el

    XRay_Specs_cartoon_0.thumbnail.jpg

  • by LovesDogs0415,

    LovesDogs0415 LovesDogs0415 Aug 28, 2016 7:20 AM in response to LovesDogs0415
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Aug 28, 2016 7:20 AM in response to LovesDogs0415

    I have been looking for a place to post and this is a good place because I just purchased the iPad Air 2.  I believe that Apple is trying to address these issues, with how much success remains to be seen, by adding features like Night Shift and True Tone.  We must keep the conversation going in spite of the absence of a perfect answer.  I believe that this forum helps. 

     

    I have only used the iPad Air 2 a couple of nights.  I experienced a little tingle in my eyes--I experience nothing using the old iPad mini, so it's not my eyes.  For most of us this is not about OUR eyes but about the devices.  As I've reported before as an example of my sensitivity to the source of the light-LED, I became nauseous and headachy at a neighbor's because of her LED Christmas lights.  It's the source of the light, not the intensity.  Anyway, I had mild success with the iPad using the Night Shift feature.

     

    The Apple store tech suggested that if this doesn't work for me that I try the iPad Pro with True Tone, but I wonder what the difference would be.  Aren't these really the same?  Anyone know?


    Please keep this conversation going.  I have posted some links before about here is just one about the gravity of this "lightmare."  http://www.spectrumalliance.co.uk


    Before this forum, I thought I was going mad.    No one had heard of this phenomenon, but I found some hope andn work arounds here.  We must keep the conversation going.  I love Apple products and using them freely is on my bucket list.   We are making a difference.

     

  • by Scott98981,

    Scott98981 Scott98981 Aug 28, 2016 8:09 PM in response to LovesDogs0415
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Notebooks
    Aug 28, 2016 8:09 PM in response to LovesDogs0415

    Despite insensitive people like CT posting on this thread, I believe there is a real biological phenomenon occurring here in which some people are intrinsically more sensitive to LED technology than others. That said, I do not believe that most applications of LEDs are necessarily damaging to the eye. It seems more likely that the blue shifted spectrum, pulse with modulation when present, and possibly temporal dithering induces accommodation spasms or some other sustained activation of the muscles in the eyes leading to pain and in some individuals, headaches.

     

    I had no eye strain on the iPad 3 from the beginning. The iPad Air 2 took me three weeks of daily headaches and eye pain for my brain to adjust to the display. However I've now used it for two years with no problems. I'm also able to use the new retina iMac (I love that display).

     

    I used blue blocking glasses for three weeks with the iPad Air 2 and that helped a bit, but I'm not sure if that was placebo or not.

     

    In summary, I do believe based on my n of 1 experience, but also based on reading about other people who have been able to accommodate to the devices that it is possible to get used to many LED screens. The two week return policy does make this challenging however. In my case with the iPad Air 2, I was still having eye strain and headaches when the return period ran out. However I liked the device so much I couldn't part with it and luckily my eyes became OK with it eventually.

first Previous Page 159 of 160 last Next