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  • MrBunuel Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    So guys, I did share my part of the story earlier.

     

    But I believe it can add some extra insight since it has actually lots to do with both Apple and Dell.

     

    Actually my problems have started when I had to switch from my old good Compaq designed HP nx7400 in order to edit full HD videos.

     

    So I bought Dell Studio 1555. I'd never think that switching from LCD into LED would make such a difference –I just couldn't work on that computer - it was giving me eyestrains and headaches like ****.

     

    The 1555 had also the famous (and yet still unsolved I think) problems with the screens - for a reason unknown to DELL (I swear I'll never buy anything from them ever) the screens were flickering when used on 40% backlight. The problem was that the 40% backlit was the only amount of backlit ordinary user could stand. Otherwise it would be like working

     

    So I made them replace the screen and the mainboard at least 4 times (thanks to NBD warranty I had) still it didn't solve the problem at all. My eyes would hurt like **** the computer would flicker. On the other hand the image on all of the screens I got was awful.

     

    But thanks to the fact all the repairs were made in my presence I knew who made the screens they were putting into my Dell - and those were usually Samsung ones. Only once, I think, the screen had not sticker on it.

     

    Now - I gave the Dell to my sister (who claims she has no problems with her eyes whatsoever) and bought myself a MBP early 2011. And everything was great again.

     

    Of course there were some speed bumps - I had the screen replaced 3 times - twice because some color stains appeared on the screen and once because the screen they used to replace was faulty (would flicker and had no contrast nor deep black). The ones working correctly were made by LG PHILLIPS, I’m not sure ‘bout the faulty one.

     

    Yet the mainboard has started to fail, after one replacement it started to fail again which led me into having my MBP replaced by Apple (thanks to AppleCare). But..,

     

    The first replacement MBP mid2012 came with a faulty Samsung screen – flicker, no contrast. But first of all – I had headaches, eyestrain and the screen was too bright to work on.

     

    After a week of phone conversations with Apple CR and having it examined by local Apple Service Provider it was replaced.

     

    They gave me matte screen for free, to show how sorry they are.

     

    I waited two weeks for it to me custom made and shipped to me from China. And after unboxing… again - eyestrain, headaches. I can only work on the lowest (one dot) backlight only with Iflux on thungsten constantly. Since I’m a filmmaker and I work on image it doesn’t make any sense.

     

    The screen, was made by Samsung, as I was able to determine. So I blame Samsung screens. Please do check who made yours.

     

    But the quality of Apple products ***** too - the MBP’s HDD is making strange sounds – like there was a rat in it who’d like to get out. Also I get buzzed by electricity every once in a while and it happens in different places. Not bad for a brand new custom made unit, right?

     

    But the most interesting thing is, as I was told by Apple employee, there is not a way to tell who made the screen you get. Both - when you buy new boxed MBP as well when they are ordering a spare part to replace faulty one. It’s like a Russian roulette.

     

    I reported my problems right away, but the woman in charge of my replacement went to vacation and I was ignored for 11 days buy the person that was supposed to take over (award winning support indeed).

     

    Two days ago they have finally contacted me and told me I’m to deliver the computer (on my expense of course) to one of two Service Providers outside my city. They told they will ignore any examination given by my local service but gave me no reason.

     

    So for the 3rd time in two months I’m backing up my data and packing the computer. Congratulations Apple you have paralyzed my professional life. If there would be any other choice, I’d never buy anything from Apple again. But there is no choice – most of the professional I use works on Apple only.

     

    So the whole adventure lasts already for almost two months since my first MBP, was picked up by a courier.

     

    In order to obtain a computer to work on, since something in my MBP, if not the whole unit, is constantly being replaced, as you might have noticed, I went to a local computer store.

     

    I was shocked to learn that 95% of computers I have tried to work on gave me eyestrain in couple of minutes.

     

    But – this is interesting – I bought IPhone5 this week (I’m sure I’m going to regret that too) – no eye strain, no nothing. Screen is great.

     

    I will keep you posted how it went with the MBP this time. Keep your fingers crossed.

  • CoreLinker Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    On the Lagom page I read about voltages in the monitor being incorrectly adjusted causing pixel walk.

     

    Not sure what that means in detail, just throwing it out there.

     

    That test Harley posted a link to is very good.

  • Gurm42 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Those tests ARE good, but not the be all and end all. The Dell U2412M, for example, passes them easily but renders me blind in minutes, much like a 2011 MBP Matte would. I suspect there is more going on here.

     

    HOWEVER, I used those tests to tweak a marginal monitor (the HP LED 23-inch I use at home which I dragged to the office to test out) and along with brightness/gamma tweaks it's MUCH more usable now!

     

    (Still want a good one, still gonna buy a couple, but I'm functional again...)

  • logoo88 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Wow! That's unbeleivable I found this topic!

     

    I purchased the 2012 MBP 13' a week ago and I just cannot look at that screen. At first sight I thought it was the font rendering. But after turning off the font smoothing of Mac OS, i didn't change anything.

    This screen is kind of psychedelic I don't know why but it gives me headhaches after the first minutes.

    I'm so sad because I love that computer but i'm going to ask for a refund.

     

    I read the 47 pages, and I'm a bit suspicious about screen flickering because, when I go to the page test mentioned before, I can't see ANY flickering compared to my LCD fluorescent monitor which doesn't give me headhaches. (And the last one does flicker a little bit).

     

    So, if it's not the flickering? What's the cause?

    I tried to make the brightness at maximum but it didn't seem to change anything. But it was on battery mode.

    Maybe MacOS tries to save power by doing something and I should try at maximum brightness on plugged mode.

     

    Guess what? It does me the same thing with the iPhone 5! I cannot look at that screen i don't know why and whatever the brightness level. The iPhones from the 3G to the 4S are OK for me.

     

    I tried other LED backlight screens (on a HP laptop) and it was fine so i'm sure LED is not complety evil, it's more what the manufacturer does with it.

     

    (Sorry for the spelling I'm french)

  • Exandas Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I experience the same problem with the MBP. Unfortunately i get the symptoms with the iPhone 5 as well.

    But i have experienced the same discomfort with other brands as well (eg HTC and Samsung). I am suspecting that the led backlight has something to do with it. Hope Apple will come up with a solution.

  • Dovez Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I say it isn't the LED backlight that is causing the problems anymore in Apple products. PWM measurements turned out negative with modern Apple products, that means backlight flicker isn't it. LEDs are just light, the same as fluorescent or incandescent with just a slightly different light spectrum, which you can filter by changing the screen settings to warmer.LEDs as a backlight in Apple products don't flicker, the spectrum is not that much different from the fluorescent backlight and the intensity can be regulated by the user. It gets diffused and polarized the same was and I see no reason why LEDs themselves could be bad. People associate them with bad experiences because the new yet unrecognized probably software related problem caused the discomfort on most new devices that happen to be LED. They do not associate pain with CCFL backlight, because the software problem didn't seem to exist back then and PWM, it seems, didn't bother people as much, perhaps because Apple products used a higher than usual frequency in most cases. And I do not think it is dithering or the flicker you see on the test pictures (unless the LCD is really badly set) that is the problem, since dithering and this other thing are nothing new. Before this new problem people mostly suffered from PWM, but is seems that PWM was only a problem to much less people than this new problem. I think the new problem might be randomly very slightly and undetectibly flickering pixels, every pixel on the screen in a snowy fashion! Most external monitors still have the PWM problem till this day, plus they may have the software problem added on top of that. I think any monitor that has pixels can have this software problem, if connected with a digital information lossless cable.

     

     

    Please read this test if you can see the flickering pixels:

     

    "... if you look closely at any mid tone area on the screen (an area that is not totally white or totally black, and this will move around the screen depending upon the scene) you will notice a snow effect, which on average makes a perfect picture, but the picture itself is really in fact a subtly modulated "snow storm" where the "snow" always takes upon itself the color of whatever the image is supposed to be in that spot. Gray areas are by far the best place to look for this. "

     

    ...

     

     

     

    "How to observe the screen -

     

     

     

    The effect is not obvious. You have to get tricky to see it. So go beneath the TV, up very close to it, at an angle where the picture does not show right. You have to be able to see the sub tones only. And THEN you will see the snow. Computers will do the color shift as well. Take your (LCD) computer screen, for practice before trying it on a big clumsy LCD television, and tilt the screen back until you see a shift in the way the colors are displayed. Many of you have already noticed this. It is at that angle you have to look at the TV, from below and not the side. This will not work on a plasma TV. But on an LCD tv, you will see what I am talking about. Windows 7 will also create and modulate a similar "snow" on computer screens, even in a still picture or desktop image. This is something new, I have always had the latest and greatest computers, and this weird effect only showed up with Windows 7. It is creepy."

  • sunbasque Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Ok this is kinda off topic but i made sure to unsubscribe from all emails from the community after i got a bunch replying to my post. I keep getting the emails and i double checked to made sure that i clicked "off" rather than on. How do i stop these emails? Ugh.

     

    ETA: I found a way to stop the notifications in the Actions tool to the right.

  • Eric Leung1 Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Hello. For those who have been following this thread for some time, you may remember that I spent quite a bit of effort trying to "train" my eyes to adapt to the iPhone 5 screen, which, I felt very uncomfortable to look at.

    Now, after many weeks of trying, I can't really make my eyes to like that screen. However, my eyes have become a bit more sensitive in that I'm more able to distinguish in what way my eyes are strained. And I think I have identified an issue on how the screen is causing the trouble.

     

    I think the backlight is triggering a form of light-induced migraine.

     

    I guess some of us could be particularly sensitive to (i.e. dislike) a certain type of light. Let's call that the migraine spot for now.

     

    What it feels is that when the backlight light rays hits the optic nerve at the back of the eyes, it triggers some kind activity in the brain. Part of the brain is probably confused by the light and thus causing nausea or headache, depending on how accurately the led light hits the migraine spot.

    Sometimes, it only takes a few seconds for that trigger to happen. Slight nausea / headache at the beginning and then intensifies after longer exposure to the light.

    But as soon as the nausea / headache happens, it would normally require around 20 to 30 minutes to recover after looking away from the screen.

    And if I glanced at the screen during that period, it could sometimes take much longer to recover! It's kind of like the "recovery timer" would get resetted every time when even just glance at the screen!

    This probably explains why we experience prolonged discomfort when working with the LED screens.

     

    My guess on how the backlight is triggering the migraine is that the strong and sharp blue hike of the LED spectrum is very close to the light frequency that is causing migraines (i.e. the migraine spot).

    It could also be other properties of the light (UV?) that is causing the problem, I don't really know.

    But I'm pretty sure that I have to see the light in order to feel uncomfortable, whether it is shining directly to the eyes or reflected from other objects. So I guess the problem is unlikely to be related to radiation.

     

    I have tried quite a number of iPhone 5 from friends and in shops, but let's focus on the two that I personally own.

    For the two iPhone 5 that I owned in the past two months (the original one that I got in Sep and the one I exchanged in Apple Store in early November), I could feel that backlight of the first phone is hitting quite accurately on the migraine spot, while the second one is hitting slightly away from it and causing a slightly different discomfort feeling. And I would say the second one is slightly more comfortable than the first one.

     

    One interesting thing I noticed is that the LED flash light on the back of the phone seems to perform very similar to how the screen's backlight is causing the discomfort feelings. Even for that slight difference between the two iPhone 5 that I owned!

    The flash of my 4S is also of similar comfortability to the screen's backlight, too.

    This observation could be just coincidence, though.

     

     

    Also, I found that there's a relation on the environmental ambient light with how bad the migraine would kick-in by the LED backlight.

    If you are in a bright area surrounded by a lot of good quality and comfortable lighting, it's less likely to feel uncomfortable.

    But if you're in a dim area, or in area with uncomfortable lighting, it's much easier for the migraine to kick-in.

     

    Apple Stores with high ceilings and huge windows allowing sunlight coming in are good examples of environment that provides lots of comfortable lights! (and that is good thing!)

    That probably explains why some of us felt ok when playing with the products inside Apple Stores and only felt major discomfort after bringing the products back to home or office.

     

     

    To counteract with the issue, I found that the glasses with FL-41 coating (a rosy red coating that cuts down the blue and green in light spectrum) is quite effective in reducing the nausea feeling. However, the eyes could still get strained a little and some mild headaches occasionally.

    Put it this way, it doesn't make the screen become very comfortable after wearing the glasses, but it helps me to be able to look at the screen much longer without sigfinicant discomfort.

     

     

    I hope this post could raise some inspiration on how to solve the uncomfortable display issue.

     

    P.S. Please note that this migraine issue I'm referring here doesn't rule out the mysterious hardware / software flickering that we have been talking about. I think there are more than one reasons why we are finding the displays uncomfortable. Actually, with the "trainings" I had over the past two months, my eyes can sort of tell the difference between the two issues.

  • Topher Kessler Level 6 Level 6 (9,735 points)

    These display issues can be solved either with a coating or covering to prevent direct reflections (if possible, which it often isnt), or by adjusting brightnesses. My suspicions are the glossy displays are resulting in more squinting or other subconscious reactions to direct reflections that result in more stress, but all this talk about the adverse effects of spectral responses in the display is far-fetched and has no backing to it. Its spectrum and intensity range are far less than daylight or even that in most light bulbs in your home, and its adjustment range should be far more than enough to compensate for any sensitivity one may have to any wavelengths it outputs.

     

    You can try to change the output is decrease the resolution and make items larger on the display, change the display's color profile to alter color balance, and reposition the display to prevent reflections and glare. This is the case with any display, especially with any glossy display.

     

    Unfortunately many people get televisions and computer monitors and just set them up as-is, and then crank them to their brightest settings. This setup is like staring directly at a light bulb and is rather ridiculous. Instead, dim it down to where you find you can't see it and then set the brightness at the mid point between this value and the brightest. Use this as a starting value, and adjust it accordingly, but avoid the extremes of this range. You might be surprised at the difference by lowering the brightness even two points.

  • jaminhubner Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Topher,

     

    Thank you for an utterly meaningless and dismissive post. There's nothing like another random dood who comes in showing absolutely no evidence of having read the multi-year thread discussion and asserting that we're all a bunch of self-deceived idiots who just need to adjust our brightness of our computer monitors or slap on a non-reflective coating and that this will fix everything.

     

    As if it needed to be stated, no, Topher, these issues cannot be resolved by simply putting on a non-reflective coating and adjusting the brightness. That's the entire reason this post was created and is still active to this day. We have done the obvious. It does no good to simply repeat what all of us have heard many times before and that simply does not work.  Maybe in your case, your eyes were irritated by simple reflections, and you went from there. We're glad your problems are resolved - and perhaps most consumers would have their problems resolved as well. But that's not our problem, and we're not talking about the majority. Hence the reason the discussion has progressed into talk about the technical workings of display monitors. Please, do not attempt to provide correction to the content of this discussion when you show no apparent evidence of the entire context of why it has thus taken place as it has.

  • Topher Kessler Level 6 Level 6 (9,735 points)

    jaminhubner wrote:

     

    Topher,

     

    Thank you for an utterly meaningless and dismissive post. There's nothing like another random dood who comes in showing absolutely no evidence of having read the multi-year thread discussion and asserting that we're all a bunch of self-deceived idiots who just need to adjust our brightness of our computer monitors or slap on a non-reflective coating and that this will fix everything.

     

    As if it needed to be stated, no, Topher, these issues cannot be resolved by simply putting on a non-reflective coating and adjusting the brightness. That's the entire reason this post was created and is still active to this day. We have done the obvious. It does no good to simply repeat what all of us have heard many times before and that simply does not work.  Maybe in your case, your eyes were irritated by simple reflections, and you went from there. We're glad your problems are resolved - and perhaps most consumers would have their problems resolved as well. But that's not our problem, and we're not talking about the majority. Hence the reason the discussion has progressed into talk about the technical workings of display monitors. Please, do not attempt to provide correction to the content of this discussion when you show no apparent evidence of the entire context of why it has thus taken place as it has.

     

    You're right, I do not believe that the LED display is the cause of the problem and more than another technology. After having read the ENTIRE thread the problem here is quite obviously one or a combination of those three things I mentioned. I'm sorry if you find offense with my disagreement with some folks' assertion that the LED spectrum and other details about LEDs is the fault here. This is simply not the case.

     

    You clearly did not read my post. I mentioned reflective coatings as one rather unfeasible option, but also mentioned other two options that are quite feasible, and I have not seen much evidence here that folks have tried this. Most people here have simply affirmed complaints that their eyes hurt or they have headaches, instead of trying full adjustments with different color profiles, brightnesses, and other details. Most of the time responses are simply "I tried it and it hurts my eyes," without much more detail than that, which as per your description is "utterly meaningless" and does not help anyone get to the bottom of anything.

  • LovesDogs0415 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Jaminhuber may have been a little rough in the beginning of his response to you Topher, but when I read your post I thought, "Oh No, someone else who doesn't really get it."  The problems that those of us experience go way beyond just adjusting the brightness of the display, the reflections or the resolution.  I don't know how you found your way to this forum, and the entire content is hard to digest even when you're suffering and desperate for help and answers.  So if you don't have this problem you probably had no interest in reading the thousands of posts to understand the depth of our experiences. We have some great technically sound people trying to solve this thing.

     

    I just want to impress on anyone from Apple who reads this thing that we who are unable to tolerate these screens have tried all of the so-called logical solutions and this goes beyond that.  My eye doctor examined my eyes before and after spending a few minues on one of the previous MacBook Pros and confirmed the strain and redness in my eyes. He couldn't explain it fully himself.  I wanted to keep that machine so much, but absolutely could not tolerate it.  A year later, I innocently purchased one of the new iTouch products, never suspecting a problem.  However, in about 10 minutes the strain and headaches began.  My husband has an Airbook that I can use a little, but his iPad is impossible to use.  Who wouldn't want an iPad, but I may be even using my last Apple computer.  I don't know what I'll do when my old white MacBook fails me.  I can't get an iPad, an iTouch, or whatever else Apple comes out with if this isn't solved.

     

    I don't suffer...from whatever the **** it is... as much as some on this forum but I still look for the day when a lot of people post a response that something has changed and we can comfortably go back to Apple products.

     

    I thought I was crazy until I found this forum.  It's not that misery loves company, but it is comforting to know that it was not just me, but that I was experiencing something real and that minds greater than mine were working on finding a solution.  This is the only place where people don't just think you're crazy when you try to explain this.  Imagine my having to go back to the Apple Store with my doctor's note saying I had to return my machine in spite of it being past two weeks because of my eyes.  I was lucky to have a nice store manager who happened to have one of the very last MacBooks with the LCD screen and he let me exchange. 

     

    I don't think you meant to be dismissive, but some of us who are suffering and struggling for answers may have found your response not as helpful as you may have thought it was.  We've been there, done that, and are still looking for answers. 

  • LovesDogs0415 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Oh, maybe I stand corrected.  Maybe he wasn't too rough on you afterall, Topher.     Many of the emails have lots of details.  What more can a person say beyond I tried [blah, blah, blah] and my eyes still hurt.  That's my story.  I know that after making some adjustments to brightness, resolution, etc. on the computer and the Touch and the Pad, my eyes still felt like they were on fire after a few minutes.  I need my computer to work and I can't do it in 10 minute increments.  Here is some more utterly useless information: LED Christmas lights make me nauseous.  Play nice now.  I'm out.

  • Topher Kessler Level 6 Level 6 (9,735 points)

    LovesDogs0415,

     

    I'm not at all dismissive of the fact that folks are experiencing eye strain (ie, I'm not saying its all in their heads, etc.), but am countering some of the conclusions that are materializing out of assumptions, such as it being a product of LED technology. All I've advocated here is that it's a product of several factors that can all be adjusted and tested beyond what many have claimed to have done, and also that for many it is the case that they have not tried all options (or shown that they have). I have also suggested that it's primarily a product of the glossy display more than other assumed details like the LED technology.

     

    The folks that dismiss this perhaps aren't interested in discussing details anymore and instead are only looking to accumulate affirmations to an apparent problem. If that's the case then this is thread is being used more as a petition than a place for discussion.

     

    For every display I've used I've had to adjust it to work best with my eyes, and don't see at all how the LED display somehow cannot be adjusted in a similar way when it has many options to do so (brightness, color, and resolution, done both with Apple's settings and with third-party solutions like SwitchResX). Granted some like glossiness generate inherent glare (ie, as long as it outputs light it will reflect off of your face), so these aren't something that can necessarily be overcome (though I mentioned this several times already), but the other details absolutely can be adjusted to similar extents as other displays.

  • LovesDogs0415 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Understood, Topher!  Thank you. 

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