RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by rohanzsta,

    rohanzsta rohanzsta Dec 7, 2012 12:25 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 7, 2012 12:25 PM in response to RMartin111

    Anyone know where I can buy a 27' Apple Cinema Display w/CCFL backlight made in 2010/2009 ?

     

    Also, are we in the clear if the screen spec says "Display Type: TFT LCD" ?

  • by Dave Nikkel,

    Dave Nikkel Dave Nikkel Dec 7, 2012 2:11 PM in response to rohanzsta
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 7, 2012 2:11 PM in response to rohanzsta

    You've got a few options:

     

    1) Check your local for sale boards (Craig's, Kijijii, ...).  If you don't see anything listed, it never hurts to post a "wanted" ad, it might prod someone who has one sitting around not being used.

     

    2) Check your local Apple resellers and see if any offer used equipment (likely trade-ins) for sale.  We have several here in Ottawa (The Mac Group, Carbon Computing).

     

    Good luck!

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Dec 10, 2012 7:35 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Dec 10, 2012 7:35 AM in response to Gurm42

    I spent all weekend recovering from severe eyestrain, this is getting pretty old I have to say. Not sure if it's the lights, the monitors, the driving I've been doing lately but it's ridiculous.

  • by logoo88,

    logoo88 logoo88 Dec 11, 2012 10:30 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 11, 2012 10:30 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hi everybody, some news.

     

    It's probably one of my last posts here. I tried MBP for a week, then MBA. MBA is less harsh for the eyes because it doesn't have those "powerfull" colors MBP has. They seem a bit washed out and that's better.

    I really love both computers and I'm so sad I have to give up.

    I don't want to damage my view just for a great laptop.

     

    But Apple's new screens have something special. Everyone around me think I'm crazy but I can see it!

    Their screen look the same way whites appear under "black light" of dancing floors. I have the same feeling.

     

    I spend the whole month reading on the internet and doing experiencies... to no avail. I don't know what's wrong with their screens.

    And I'm not an engineer so that's not my role after all.

     

    Today, my university has changed their computers screens to new LED ones. They are brighter and more colorful but have not the weird effect Apple ones have.

    If I were you, I would not (like I did) try to change screen temperature, fonts, buying color filters and everything else. You're loosing  your precious time.

     

    Otherwise, I can tell you that Apple screens DO flicker (probably because of PWM). I did the test with my camera with a 1 sec opening time. (But I can't see the strobe effect like on my CCFL).

    But all my screens flicker, the CCFL ones , my 3GS LED probably does too. If you want I can upload the photos I took?

     

     

    What I would really like to know is (and I pray someone to answer it)

    - Does a Macbook/imac with windows 7 hurt?

    - Does a mac mini with a non problematic screen hurt?

    - Any definitive sight damage to report?

     

    That will tell if the problem is the hardware, the software of both of them.

     

    Thanks!

  • by CoreLinker,

    CoreLinker CoreLinker Dec 11, 2012 11:47 AM in response to logoo88
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 11, 2012 11:47 AM in response to logoo88

    "Otherwise, I can tell you that Apple screens DO flicker (probably because of PWM). I did the test with my camera with a 1 sec opening time."

     

    *sigh* And what did you find out? How could such a long exposure time tell you anything more meaningful about flicker?

     

    The backlight does not flicker, it looks from what you're saying that the panel does. It might be from the panel itself, or through the input channel (software/drivers etc.). It can be dithering or pixel walk or something else IDK. The lagom tests seem to be pretty definitive ways to detect both.

     

    Sorry if I sound kind of harsh, your post is good, it's just that the PWM claim about Apple displays has been done to death. There is no hardware manufacturer who seems to care or is aware about PWM more than Apple. They have been PWM free for a couple years.

  • by mojarvinen,

    mojarvinen mojarvinen Dec 11, 2012 12:03 PM in response to CoreLinker
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 11, 2012 12:03 PM in response to CoreLinker

    I can confirm that HP ZR2740w version 2 with the new less agressive anti glare does not flicker and does not cause eye strain.

     

    So, I can confirm that the problem is the PWM flicker and nothing else. Case closed.

  • by CoreLinker,

    CoreLinker CoreLinker Dec 11, 2012 12:12 PM in response to mojarvinen
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 11, 2012 12:12 PM in response to mojarvinen

    Not so fast Mr. Case Closed! We have yet to see any proof about the extremely easily detectable PWM being utilized in newer Apple displays.

     

    If there is any way to mask PWM and I bet there isn't, why would Apple even bother to mask it? Look at the previous posts (even just the recent ones) and you'll see that the PWM theory doesn't hold water. I am sensitive to PWM, I would know.

  • by logoo88,

    logoo88 logoo88 Dec 11, 2012 12:20 PM in response to CoreLinker
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 11, 2012 12:20 PM in response to CoreLinker

    I trust you, I've used a test I found on a website but I have not so much knowledge about it, I admitt it.

    Furthermore, lagom tests don't show any flickering as far as I'm concerned.

    But is this test able to reveal a high frequency  flickering? (Still problematic because of the harsh transitions between on/off)

     

    I will try to test windows on it via bootcamp during the week..

  • by mojarvinen,

    mojarvinen mojarvinen Dec 11, 2012 12:22 PM in response to CoreLinker
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 11, 2012 12:22 PM in response to CoreLinker

    The pixel walk test flickers only at about 30 Hz (the explanation on lagom.nl) If one would be sensitive to the pixel walk flicker, then one would be most likely sensitive to cinema 24 Hz flicker. I think it needs a harsh LED flicker at about 180 Hz or so, to cause problems.

     

    This is what I think at the moment. What comes to the Apple displays, I tested the iPad 2 display and it does not have PWM, yet it does give me some slight eye strain. So that might be due to DPI and the fact of looking at a slightly flickering grid at a close distance, but it's nowhere near the strain I get from 180 Hz LED backlight flicker.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Dec 13, 2012 2:15 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 13, 2012 2:15 PM in response to RMartin111

    I thought to let you know my current status regarding the infamous eye strain... So:

     

    - I get eye strain from PWM monitors, no matter if LED or CCFL (LED is worse)

    - Provided that PWM is not present, I get as well eye strain from:

         - Win7 via DVI cable (changing font or font subpixel rendering or non-native resolution is not helping)

         - Snow Leopard/Lion on iMac 2009, MBP/MBA 2011 (changing font or font subpixel rendering is not helping, changing resolution not really tested)

         - iOS on iPad 2 and 3 (2 is comfortable than 3)

         - Ubuntu (11.10) via DVI cable (font/resolution change not tried)

     

    - Provided that PWM is not present, I don't get eye strain from:

         - WinXP (both VGA and DVI cable are OK)

         - Leopard on iMac 2009

         - Win7 via VGA cable (dind't test MacOS or iOS via VGA)

         - Ubuntu (11.10) via VGA cable

         - Android (Galaxy Tab 10.1, Galaxy Note 10.1), however I think the devices have a slight (what I call now) "rotated" PWM (LEDs not all off at once), since after some hours a certain strain was present, anyway the devices were for me usable

         - iOS on iPad1, iPhone 3GS, iPhone4

         - Win8 RT (Surface), could be rotated PWM is also there but device is even more comfortable as the Galaxy Tabs

     

    My current conclusions:

    - WinXP/Win8/iOS/Leopard are OK

    - Snow Leopard/Lion/Mountain Lion/Win7/Ubuntu have a misterious issue which disappears when using VGA cable

    - mobile LED backlit devices have all rotated PWM however due to different frequencies and algorithms some devices are more comfortable (iPad1 beeing best) or less comfortable (iPad3 worst) and other devices ranging in between...

    - colour temperature, font and font subpixel rendering have some influence but in my case, adjusting them is not bringing much relief

     

    They are not final, but since some months quite stable.

    I'm not so sure about Win8 beeing OK, since not enough testing.

     

    All this is just what is helping or not helping me, I do believe anyone saying it is not working for them, in the mean time I don't try to find any solutions anymore, I just want some devices I can use, I really hope people at Apple are reading this thread since I'm terribly sorry for not beeing able to use their latest products.

     

    Wish you all an eye strain free Christmas,

    Stefan

  • by Eric Leung1,

    Eric Leung1 Eric Leung1 Dec 13, 2012 10:53 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Dec 13, 2012 10:53 PM in response to StefanD13

    Stefan, thank you for your very detailed information!

     

    Your tests on the VGA cable has effectively proved that to be an effective way in solving the mysterious flickering issue. I know what to pick when I'm going to buy my next monitor

     

    I have a question regarding the "rotated PWM" though. I have done the "camera swing test" on the Samsung Galaxy S3 and can confirm your claim that it's flickering, but not whole screen at the same time. However, I couldn't see the same with the Apple iOS devices.

    May I know if you have done anything to see that rotated PWM on the iOS devices?

  • by CoreLinker,

    CoreLinker CoreLinker Dec 14, 2012 7:17 AM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 14, 2012 7:17 AM in response to StefanD13

    Stefan, could you tell us which PWM-free monitor were you using? I'm asking because I wonder what kind of scaler and processing the monitor has. Since analog signal is processed into digital with some method, I wonder why changing the resolution via a digital connection doesn't process the image the same way.

     

    And rotated PWM is a myth for now. With an AMOLED screen I guess it would be possible since every pixel is it's own light source.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Dec 14, 2012 8:53 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 14, 2012 8:53 AM in response to RMartin111

    CoreLinker,

     

    The monitor is an old Benq FP93E. It is PWM free only when used at 100%

    brightness, but the display is old enough not to have a high brightness.

     

    I don’t think rotated PWM is a myth (actually idea was imtroduced by

    someone else here in the forum). Opposite to ccfl where only 2 light bars

    are built in, in led displays there are 2 rows of leds and they can be lit

    independently as well.

     

    Indeed I couldn’t prove rotated PWM on Apple devices, but I’m almost sure I

    proved it on another Sony notebook.

     

    I used for measurement a phototransistor connected at an oscilloscope and I

    could see indeed a very slight sinus curve when directing the

    phototransistor at the edge of the screen. However I must admit I’m not an

    expert at all with this stuff...

  • by Conan_BC,

    Conan_BC Conan_BC Dec 14, 2012 9:55 PM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 14, 2012 9:55 PM in response to Gurm42

    Hi Gurm,

     

    It has been more than a week since I started using Dell U3011 in my office. I'm happy to report that I am not experiencing any eye strain using the monitor. I use the monitor more than 8 hours per day. It is connected to my Windows 7 PC with Nvidia GTX 460 video card.

     

    I like the monitor a lot. When I first started using the monitor, I felt the size (30inch) a bit overwhelming.  When I had white background on the entire screen, I felt that there is too much light shining on me. Now I am used to it and it does not bother me any more. (Still, I might go for U2711 if I had another choice.)

     

    I was worried about the PWM even though it has the CCFL backlight. When I lower brightness and wave my hand, I can see the flickering. However, the flickering does not cause any eye strain for me. I set the brightness at 50 and contrast at 40.

     

    Conan

  • by Dovez,

    Dovez Dovez Dec 15, 2012 7:53 AM in response to Eric Leung1
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 15, 2012 7:53 AM in response to Eric Leung1

    Could you, Eric, send me a screenshot in .bmp format of your Macbook Air with completely white content with the native screen resolution to dovez123@gmail.com so I could enlarge it and look if all white pixels look the same (or you could enlarge it and see yourself)? If some are dimmer than others, than it would be a definite sign that they are flickering. If not, then there is no conclusion I can make (I'm pretty sure all pixels will look the same, though). Also, all who can measure flicker might want to try measuring one isolated pixel instead of a row of pixels.

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