RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by eeeechuta,

    eeeechuta eeeechuta Dec 15, 2012 10:16 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 15, 2012 10:16 AM in response to RMartin111

    Just like to add my two cents:

     

    I run an iPhone app development company and I have owned a multitude of Apple devices over the last few years, including a 2010 MBP (LG), 2011 unibody MBP (LG), 2012 rMBP (LG), 2012 rMBP (Samsung), 2010 MBA, 2011 MBA, as well as iPhone 3GS/4/4S/5, and iPad 1/2/3.

     

    Of these, only the 2011 MBP (LG) and iPad 1 exhibited the problems that seem to be mentioned in this thread. I just couldn't look at those two displays for more than 5 minutes without getting a very odd form of eyestrain. It's like my eyes weren't able to relax and focus on the screen.  Nobody I showed it to could understand what I was talking about.

     

    Funny thing is, the 2011 MBP used the exact same panel model (determined through the terminal command) as the 2010 MBP that I have, but I was able to look at that model for hours without end.  The color temperature between the two were vastly different however, so it's possible that the backlight was a differnet part.

     

    I've also seen iPad 1's that had a vastly different color temperature, but also seemed easier on the eyes than my own model, once again indicating a different backlight.  The iPad 1 that I couldn't stare at was used by my wife for many hours without any complaints, indicating that this problem only happens to particular individuals.

     

    I never had any other problems with the rest of the Apple devices I owned, but I will say that some of them were more comfortable to stare at than others.  If I had to rank them in order of preferece, it would be

     

    Comforatable

    2012 rMBP (Samsung)

    iPad 2

    iPhone 4S

     

     

    Acceptable

    iPhone 5

    iPhone 3GS

    iPhone 4

    2011 MBA

    2010 MBA

    2010 MBP

    iPad 3

     

    Unaccpetalbe

    iPad 1

    2011 MBP (LG)

     

    My only conclusion is this: Apple uses different backlights in their products, sometimes even with the same product line.  Some backlights are more comfortable than others.

  • by CoreLinker,

    CoreLinker CoreLinker Dec 15, 2012 12:33 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 15, 2012 12:33 PM in response to StefanD13

    Stefan, an oscilloscope would give you a square wave reading with PWM LEDs, not sine wave. The LED array can also be one sided, which is how I think they are usually made these days.

     

    And lots of things were suggested so far in this mammoth thread, too many to count.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Dec 15, 2012 3:29 PM in response to CoreLinker
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 15, 2012 3:29 PM in response to CoreLinker

    I expected as well more square than sine... but I blame it on the rise and fall time of the phototransistor.

    Could be also voltage is variated as well. I read about a recent monitor (I think Samsung?) which is doing PWM but not by fully turning off the LEDs, but only variating voltage.

  • by LovesDogs0415,

    LovesDogs0415 LovesDogs0415 Dec 23, 2012 3:43 PM in response to eww
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Dec 23, 2012 3:43 PM in response to eww

    I think we have more than 100 or 200 users who suffer. 

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Dec 24, 2012 1:07 AM in response to eww
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 24, 2012 1:07 AM in response to eww

    I understand that there are degrees of discomfort due to screens. In my personal view and during my research during the past two years i have asked people that have just changed their screens from ccfl to led (laptop or desktop) and without explaining them in advance i ask them if they experience in general any headaches or eye strain. Most of the people admit that they do have more headaches during a period that usually coincides with the period they use the new screen. Most of them believe that its due to wifi or that their pc needs some kind of adjustment to wifi, while in my view its due to the screen.

    Although the discomfort in most of those people i asked was not so intense to cause them to drop their mac, it seems there is something there that did not exist with the ccfl screens.

     

    I have also asked the salesmen in my local IT store that sells Macs, and there are people that return their new mac laptops because they believe the screen is not functioning correctly and is causing them eye strain. I have not followed up on such cases, but it is my personal view that they will continue to suffer because the issue seems to lie in the new led technology.

     

    I am not claiming that i possess the explanation for all the sufferers in this forum nor i have a used a significant statistical sample to support my claims, but i think there are signs around us that engineers at Apple should consider regarding the new screens. Even if the discomfort is minor, it seems that there is something that the human body does not accept and responds to it in varying degrees. Maybe it is the blue light the leds emit, who knows. But it is my personal view that when most of the ccfl screens will be replaced with the new technology screens the number of people complaining about eye strains, headaches, or even nausea will start to increase.

  • by LovesDogs0415,

    LovesDogs0415 LovesDogs0415 Dec 24, 2012 1:59 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Dec 24, 2012 1:59 PM in response to RMartin111

    Pardon me for posting an indirect question.  However, I know that people on this thread know how crucial it is to keep the machines we can use working and you may also be able to help me.  I posted a thread here because I am having problems with my hard drive.  I am sort of freaking out because I don't want to lose my laptop.  If you are interested in looking at a question about hard drive capacity, please look here:  https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4624283

     

    If not, please accept my apology for posting here.

     

    Happy Holidays

  • by Slunce,

    Slunce Slunce Dec 26, 2012 6:01 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 26, 2012 6:01 AM in response to RMartin111

    In past I contributed to this thread as I suffer from the same as most of you. I also noticed that I still have discomfort using a CCFL external monitor with my MBP (as opposed to using PC laptop with external monitor). I find that hard to believe myself and it is obviously difficult to make conclusions as one does not keep all the hardware all the time to be able to compare them all next to each other.

     

    Anyway, I bought PA series NEC monitor (PA231) which is not comfortable and gives me headache within an hour. It is (supposed to be) a good quality screen however I am consistently unfortable with it.

     

    I did not give up and bought another screen - EIZO SX2262W and whilst I have reservations I can confirm that it is headache free. I was surprised by this fact since I knew the screen had backlighting frequency of just under 100Hz. Anyway, it is OK even on minimal brightness.

     

    The good thing (same as with PA231 NEC) is that the lowest brightness is quite low - especially compared to any 24'' screen I have seen or tried. I really do not know what kind of people can stare at 350cd/m2 (well at anything above 80-90 really, I usually use 40cd/m2 or less which is achievable with the 22'' EIZO or the PA231 screen and only go to 50-60cd/m2 as a minimum for developing photos).

     

    Best regards,

    Petr

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Dec 26, 2012 6:13 AM in response to Slunce
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Dec 26, 2012 6:13 AM in response to Slunce

    Slunce, I am very glad you found a good solution for your eyestrain.

     

    I wonder if there are any sub-$500 monitors left that will work well for us, as the Eizo you mentioned starts around $750 (USD) and goes up from there, depending on source.

     

    My personal struggle continues, went to the Ophthalmologist and it turns out I probably need both a bump in my distance vision AND progressive "computer" lenses, so I'll hold all judgment until I've made that transition.

     

    - G

  • by Slunce,

    Slunce Slunce Dec 26, 2012 6:33 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 26, 2012 6:33 AM in response to Gurm42

    There is LG Flatron 22'' CCFL one I use at work. I bought it because had at my previous employer's place and it was totally ok. With the MBP it is less comfortable but still OK. I got it for something like 130 EUR. The monitor is really poor for anything except for office application but it does the job at work and would be OK for ordinary user.

     

    I got the EIZO for home use due to my passion in photography. Wanted to go the cheaper way but the NEC is not OK for me. I rushed into the EIZO as they discontinued 22'' size in their line-up and the new range of EIZO is all LED. They sell the SX line now wiht a discount.

  • by rohanzsta,

    rohanzsta rohanzsta Dec 26, 2012 10:31 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 26, 2012 10:31 AM in response to RMartin111

    Does anyone take any medication at work to reduce the migraine/dizziness? I've only heard people talk about Ibuprofen in this thread, but I was wondering if anyone is taking anything else that works? Are there any non-prescriptive glasses that help but don't look too crazy (e.g. do gunnar glasses really help)?

     

    I'm starting a new job next week and the first few months will require a lot of pairing/training on a macbook/cinema display, which means I'm just going to suck it up and try to find a way to outstand the pain.

     


    Has anyone ever tried these? The reviews look good but the tint color looks a little funky. I wonder if they have a more clear pair...
    http://www.amazon.com/GUNNAR-Computer-Eyeweaer-Rocket-Frame/dp/B001DUOWA0/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356546466&sr=8-1&keywords=gunnar+glasses+eyestrain

  • by ashj05,

    ashj05 ashj05 Dec 27, 2012 11:38 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 27, 2012 11:38 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hi guys, thank you for all sharing your insights- this thread has helped me a lot.

     

    I bought an iPhone 5 and I noticed some eystrain/tingling that only appeared to be getting worse, so I returned it for an iphone 4s. I'm not getting as much of that same tingling feeling with the 4s, but I don't feel 100% comfortable with it either.

     

    I'm currently debating between switching all the way down to the iPhone 4 or taking the Samsung Galaxy SIII (I'm on Sprint).

     

    My question to you all is, do any of you experience pain with the iPhone 4s/4? I saw the specs online and I appear to get different responses (some show TFT LCD display while others show LED-backlit).

     

    If anyone's been through this process with their phones, any insight would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, I think I'm going to switch to a Galaxy...

  • by Conan_BC,

    Conan_BC Conan_BC Dec 27, 2012 4:54 PM in response to ashj05
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 27, 2012 4:54 PM in response to ashj05

    I tried Galaxy S3 but experienced the same eye strain. I ended up getting Galaxy Note 2 instead, and my eyes are much more comfortable with it. (It helps to set screen mode to "Natural" in the setting.) I think there are two reasons. First, Note 2 has AMOLED plus which has a different LED arrangement than usual AMOLED screens. Second, Note 2 has a bigger screen which makes reading easier.

  • by drunkenFlower,

    drunkenFlower drunkenFlower Dec 28, 2012 2:13 PM in response to CoreLinker
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 28, 2012 2:13 PM in response to CoreLinker

    where can I get it?

  • by LovesDogs0415,

    LovesDogs0415 LovesDogs0415 Dec 30, 2012 12:37 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (4 points)
    Dec 30, 2012 12:37 PM in response to RMartin111

    The original post was in 2008, and still we have no help.  I just returned from the Apple store to have my hard drive replaced on my mid-2009 Macbook.  I looked longingly at the new computers, computers I will never own.  I spent a few minutes on the news 15" MacBook Pro with anti-glare screen, just hoping something had changed.

    Didn't take long for my eyes to feel uncomfortable. 

     

    Thanks to this forum, I know I'm not crazy and I also don't expect anyone in the Apple store to be able to help me.  Their eyes glaze over when I mention the discomfort from the LED backlit screen.  "Here's that crazy lady with that weird issue, again," is what it feels like. "Can't you get some of those computer glasses," one asks.  I mention this forum, but my suggestions that they check it out fall on unconcerned ears.  I feel like an outsider in the Apple Store---I can't buy any of the pretties.

     

    Okay, my point: Is there any way to find out how many of us are on this list?  How many of us suffer?  We have had only 169,000+ views and 777 replies, both very small numbers in the Apple world.  As my computer gets older and older, I get panicked about piecing it together to keep the LCD screen.  There was a post about a petition on Change dot com, but I couldn't open it.  The note at top of this forum about a branching discussion is not accessible.  Anybody know what that is or why it's not accessible?

  • by ashj05,

    ashj05 ashj05 Dec 30, 2012 9:08 PM in response to Conan_BC
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 30, 2012 9:08 PM in response to Conan_BC

    Thanks for the insight, Conan_BC. This makes me even more worried about what phone I should purchase.

     

    I'm very curious what everyone else on this thread uses for phones? Which models do you find the easiest on the eyes?

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