RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by GKphone,

    GKphone GKphone Jan 31, 2013 1:24 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 31, 2013 1:24 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hi Just sending my "Retina Mac book pro" back to Apple, as i cant deal with the screen, due to it giving me a sun burn effect on my skin. The discomfort / pain was lasting for around 6-8 hours after using it for even a short period. Apple where kind enough to extend the 14 trial day period. But have to go back to my 20008 Mac book pro. Which was not a problem.

     

    My old Black Macbook with a LCD screen was a problem, but i hoped the LED illuminated screens had solved this problem?

     

    The screen gives me the same problems that the low energy bulbs that we have been forced to use in the UK. Flicker, UV, EMF issues.

     

    I'm now go to order the new Mac book pro without the Retina screen, and see what happens there?

  • by logoo88,

    logoo88 logoo88 Jan 31, 2013 2:31 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 31, 2013 2:31 PM in response to RMartin111

    Now I'm sure that the problem is PWM.

     

    After selling my MBP beacause of being unable to use it (as well as the air), I bought the Lenovo thinkpad E330.

    Guess what?

    Eye strain and disconfort as well but within the first 10 minutes of using it.

    I have two computers to compare:

    - A desktop computer with a CCFL screen

    - A hp laptop LED backlighted

     

    I have no problem with the two others.

    I put the three on the same brightness (middle) and I moved my hands fastly in front of the screen.
    Only the thinkpad had a stroboscopic effect.

    BUT, when on maximum brightness, the thinkpad looses that effect and I can use it without disconfort.

    Conclusion of that experience:

    The thinkpad uses a poor PWM that goes away at full brightness.

     

    On the macbook pro/air I had, the stroboscopic effect whas less apparent (the frequency was certainly higher), and I couldn't tell if it went away at full brightness because the mac go way brighter than the thinkpad and it's impossible to look at it (in a normal use).
    What's funny is that the eye strain appared within the first 30 min for the mac (instead of 10 min), and I think that's due to the slightly higher frequency.

    Conclusion:

    If the mac uses PWM, it's more subtle and maybe more difficult to show it.

     

    To conclude, I would say that had the SAME symptoms. I really felt the same disconfort.

    That's why for me the problem is here.

  • by maarcs,

    maarcs maarcs Feb 1, 2013 12:11 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 1, 2013 12:11 AM in response to RMartin111

    I have few questions.

     

    1. Can we really wait from Apple some graphic card updates?

    2. What are the external monitors, that wont cause eye strain?

  • by Gareth Jones6,

    Gareth Jones6 Gareth Jones6 Feb 1, 2013 5:02 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 1, 2013 5:02 AM in response to RMartin111

    I can't believe that after 2 years of severe migraines I have only just found this post, it all seems so obvious now that it began when I began using my 2007 MBP daily for work purposes.

     

    Unfortunately I can't really afford to buy a new MBP. Can anyone recommend any affordable laptops that won't cause these problems?

     

    In response to maarcs, there is a list of safe monitors here:

     

    http://vasyafromukraine.webs.com/

  • by GKphone,

    GKphone GKphone Feb 1, 2013 7:07 AM in response to Gareth Jones6
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 1, 2013 7:07 AM in response to Gareth Jones6

    Sell it on ebay and look for another one out there, i can recommend the first LED 2008 MBP  with 1440 x 900 screen any higher pixel amount maybe an issue? It has been for me.

     

    Just a note if you go and buy a TV DVD home Projector you maybe asked, are you effected by the rainbow effect 1 in every 10.000 people see a ranbow /strobe effect from a LDP projector, so you have to use a LCD projector instead which is not a problem..

  • by Lexiepex,

    Lexiepex Lexiepex Feb 1, 2013 7:20 AM in response to Gareth Jones6
    Level 6 (10,536 points)
    Mac OS X
    Feb 1, 2013 7:20 AM in response to Gareth Jones6

    did you already try some of the proposals made here (like f.lux etc)

  • by Gareth Jones6,

    Gareth Jones6 Gareth Jones6 Feb 1, 2013 8:25 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 1, 2013 8:25 AM in response to RMartin111

    I have f.lux but wasn't sure what to do with it. What settings do you recommend?

     

    I have also ordered the Acer S243HL Abmii monitor so perhaps that will make a difference. I may also get the Moshi Ivisor but I'm not sure if reflection on the screen is my problem, it is already a matt screen with minimal reflection. PWM sounds more likely to be the problem.

     

    And GKPhone, you may be right that I should try a later model of MBP. I don't understand your point about higher pixel rates however?

  • by scartacus,

    scartacus scartacus Feb 11, 2013 11:54 AM in response to iStrain
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 11, 2013 11:54 AM in response to iStrain

    Update on my macbook pro eyestrain.

     

    About two weeks ago I added a Moshi Ivisor and Flux. Initially the eyestrain went away. But it has come back with avengeance. eye aches, eyes watering -- worse still, my eyesight is rapidly deteriorating to the poiint that I find it hard to read emails.

     

    I only wsh I hadn't got my old 2010 MBP screen repaired under applecare. It had a few stuck pixels but it caused me zero problems. Whatever Apple replaced it with, it's killing my eyesight.

     

    The Moshi Ivisor turns the screen into a matte screen so the problem must be to do with refesh rate or whatever not the glossy screen.

     

    Is there anywhere i can buy a 2010 screen? But fitting it would cost the earth, I'm guessing. Do I really have to sell this machine and then buy another 2010 one on ebay?

     

    Apple, why can't you help us?! We like the look of your products, but do we have to go blind to use them?

  • by scartacus,

    scartacus scartacus Feb 11, 2013 12:02 PM in response to scartacus
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 11, 2013 12:02 PM in response to scartacus

    Extreme solution -- has anyone tried turning off the colour entirely in the access pref tab?

  • by mvanier,

    mvanier mvanier Feb 11, 2013 2:21 PM in response to scartacus
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 11, 2013 2:21 PM in response to scartacus

    Two words: External Monitor.  Preferably non-Apple, very preferably CCFL-backlit.  I realize that laptops are convenient but external monitors are cheap and it's way nicer to work on a 20" to 24" screen anyway.  Don't hold your breath hoping for Apple to change their ways; they've done just fine by ignoring everyone with eyestrain and concentrating on making monitors whose colors are so brilliant they leap out at you in the Apple store (regardless of the long-term effects on your vision).  They just don't care, and they have no reason to care.  Look elsewhere.  Vote with your pocketbook.  I'm writing this on a Macbook Pro connected to an old cheap Princeton CCFL-backlit monitor, and it never bothers my eyes.

  • by scartacus,

    scartacus scartacus Feb 12, 2013 1:46 AM in response to mvanier
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 12, 2013 1:46 AM in response to mvanier

    I've got a dell at home which which works great. But I'm a writer away from home a lot and need to be able to sit in a hotel room with my computer, for hours on end. Previously this was not a problem with the mid 2010 MBP -- until they swapped out the screen for the LG one, model LP133WX3-TLA4.

     

    Does anybody know what the standard 13 inch MBP screen would have been back in mid 2010? I'm now thinking I need to source one of those and replace apple's replacement. 

  • by maarcs,

    maarcs maarcs Feb 12, 2013 1:33 PM in response to scartacus
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 12, 2013 1:33 PM in response to scartacus

    Want to hear something crazy?

     

    I have had mid 2012 MBA for a 3 month now. First two month I didnt feel any eye strain, then on the January it started to feel uncofortable. In the begining I just thought why I havent noticed it earlier. And now I found something interesting. When I take multi vitamins for a few days, eye strain is just goving away. When I stop using them, my eyes start to feel like ****. So why didnt I notice it earlier? My guess is that it might be related to our lifestyle.

     

    I eate healthy and did some exercise until the end of the year. I had job where I had to move a lot. After losing my job I started to eat unhealthy, more macdonalds and less exercise, in fact I havend done any exercise for a month, and not only my body feels week, my eyes feel too.

     

    So I took bought some multi vitamins for men. Changed my nutrition to much more healthier and pain went away.. Belive it or not, I found the cure for myself.

     

    This is the third hour I am using my mac, and only now my eyes are feeling a little tired, but thats just normal I guess.

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Feb 13, 2013 2:46 AM in response to maarcs
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2013 2:46 AM in response to maarcs

    I think that general health plays a role since i guess the eye strain is somehow related to the nervous system (as i found out during my research).

     

    Yet in my case this does not hold true. I believe i have the ideal weight for my body, i exercise 1 hour daily, my eating habits are very good, and my medical exams are very good (according to my doctor). Yet i cant look at the new MBP / Ipad2 / iphone 4S for more than 30 mins without getting eye strain, headaches, dizziness, and a burning sense in the face.

     

    Most of my friends are in the opposite physical condition, i.e. eat unhealthy, don't exercise, etc, yet have no symptoms at all either with Apple products or any other products (e.g. Samsungs) that have a led screen.

     

    It would be of interest, if you continue your good eating habits, to tell the forum if in the near future you don't experience any problems with your MBA.

    I am extremely disappointed because i am an Apple products user for at least 12 years and now i am forced to look for my computing needs in other brands that don't hurt me. So any contributions are welcomed if it helps to go back to our preferred brand.

  • by mvanier,

    mvanier mvanier Feb 13, 2013 10:53 AM in response to maarcs
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2013 10:53 AM in response to maarcs

    It's not crazy at all.  I did some research and found out that two carotenoids (lutein and zeaxanthin) are extremely important for good vision.  Zeaxanthin, in particular, may be relevant to those of us on this list.  It appears to protect the retina from excessive amounts of blue light.  I've been taking supplements for a while and also eating foods rich in lutein and zeaxanthin (kale has huge amounts of lutein, and orange bell peppers (but not the other colors) have large amounts of zeaxanthin), and it may be my imagination but my iPhone 4s, which used to hurt my eyes when I looked at it, doesn't anymore.  Also, both vegetables are great for juicing if you are into that.  It's certainl worth a try if you have eyestrain issues and think that blue light is involved.

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Feb 14, 2013 7:33 AM in response to mvanier
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 14, 2013 7:33 AM in response to mvanier

    I know that there are foods that protect the eyes and i actually eat a lot of spinach and cabbage that contain both lutein and zeaxanthin. But there is a chance that some organisms need larger quantities due to natural deficiency, so in my case i may need more of them, if of course the problem is the blue led light. Do you actually use the iPhone as your main phone i.e. do you use it a siginificant amount of time each day?

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