Histogram data

Rob Leigh wrote:
Histograms should be supported as a built in function in Numbers.

It's your advice, not a general requirement.

I've seen previous discussions of this here in which the problem is marked "solved", but the solution is ridiculous.

Some end users like you tried to do their best to help the OP. Writing that their response was ridiculous is really not fair. Don't be surprised if your next questions aren't responded !

Providing this would be no more complicated than any other type of chart, and this is a basic data analysis tool.

Once again, it's your advice, not a general requirement.

So why not support it? It would for example make Numbers useful in education (teachers do grade papers...), and scientific data analysis.

Maybe because it doesn't fit the good old 80% rule.

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+Apple Human Interface Guidelines:+
+Apply the 80 Percent Solution+
+During the design process, if you discover problems with your product design, you might consider applying the 80 percent solution—that is, designing your software to meet the needs of at least 80 percent of your users. This type of design typically favors simpler, more elegant approaches to problems.+
+If you try to design for the 20 percent of your target audience who are power users, your design may not be usable by the other 80 percent of users. Even though that smaller group of power users is likely to have good ideas for features, the majority of your user base may not think in the same way. Involving a broad range of users in your design process can help you find the 80 percent solution.+

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_Go to "Provide Numbers Feedback" in the "Numbers" menu_, describe what you wish.
Then, cross your fingers, and wait _at least_ for iWork'09 😉

Yvan KOENIG (from FRANCE jeudi 28 août 2008 11:51:05)

Yvan,

Your English is much better than my French, but I'm wondering if perhaps you misunderstood Rob when he said 'the solution is ridiculous'. That is not the same as saying 'their response was ridiculous'. Perhaps he was referring to one of my responses in relation to numbers and data analysis. If he was, I certainly don't take offence at what he said. I'm sure we all agree that the need to have such workarounds is the problem, not the workarounds themselves, and not the people who suggest them.

I think it is fair to say that histograms are 'a basic data analysis tool'.

If Apple sees fit not to include that level of functionality in the next version of Numbers we could conclude that they do not intend it to be used for basic data analysis. While 80% of iWork users might never use data analysis tools I suspect it would be a different story for 80% of those who actually open Numbers up and use it.

I recall having to write macros because Excel did not provide certain functions in its early days. I suspect that when spreadsheets were first invented there were many things missing that we now take for granted. However I would expect those things to be included in a spreadsheet today even if it is only at version 1.

peter1952 wrote:
Yvan,

Your English is much better than my French, but I'm wondering if perhaps you misunderstood Rob when he said 'the solution is ridiculous'.

You know better than me what you wrote. So, I assume that you are right.

While 80% of iWork users might never use data analysis tools I suspect it would be a different story for 80% of those who actually open Numbers up and use it.

On this point I disagree.

The AHIG clearly states:
+that is, designing your software to meet the needs of _at least 80 percent of your users._+

So, it appears that Numbers designers thought that the required feature doesn't fit in the defined range.
Of course, they may change their mind for version 2.

Yvan KOENIG (from FRANCE vendredi 29 août 2008 09:12:33)

No, I feel that you should maintain your high expectations of apple, this is how we stay a head of the curve. I try to show people how easier life is with a mac everyday. However this makes it difficult when I'm in my engineering class lost because I'm not able to do my statistic analysis on the data that we've just obtained. The histogram and other attributes need to be added to numbers, instead of shoving an incomplete product out like Microsoft does I think there should have been a little more research done on this one.

Arc Angel wrote:
No, I feel that you should maintain your high expectations of apple, this is how we stay a head of the curve. I try to show people how easier life is with a mac everyday. However this makes it difficult when I'm in my engineering class lost because I'm not able to do my statistic analysis on the data that we've just obtained. The histogram and other attributes need to be added to numbers, instead of shoving an incomplete product out like Microsoft does I think there should have been a little more research done on this one.

A program is not designed to fit your needs but the needs of _many users_ .
When a feature is not embedded in a program, it's not necessarily because the authors made insufficient research. I am confident that Numbers designers perfectly know how to build histograms. They simply thought that the feature is not useful to their target audience.

The Apple Human Interface Guidelines wich rule program design are clear:

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Apple Human Interface Guidelines:
Apply the 80 Percent Solution
During the design process, if you discover problems with your product design, you might consider applying the 80 percent solution‚ that is, designing your software to meet the needs of at least 80 percent of your users. This type of design typically favors simpler, more elegant approaches to problems.
If you try to design for the 20 percent of your target audience who are power users, your design may not be usable by the other 80 percent of users. Even though that smaller group of power users is likely to have good ideas for features, the majority of your user base may not think in the same way. Involving a broad range of users in your design process can help you find the 80 percent solution.

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Yvan KOENIG (from FRANCE jeudi 11 septembre 2008 15:37:39)

I completely understand what your are saying and once again evidently there is enough people that need the function that excel has provided this function. The target it seem to me when i bought iworks, was the ability to do and expound on what Microsoft Office does including excel however, it fall sort in the research data analysis tools. I have to be a programer it seems to get close to the abilities of excel. It seem like you were saying that the target audience is people who seem to like there data more aesthetically pleasing rather than have Numbers to be used as a tool to help them with taking data and making it available to whom ever needs the information in the form that it need to be presented. I love my mac however it harder to learn number than it is to learn excel more so 07 I can find visual tutorials everywhere for excel but not numbers. So, I'm still trying to understand exactly who is the target audience for Numbers?

Apple Human Interface Guidelines:
Apply the 80 Percent Solution
During the design process, if you discover problems with your product design, you might consider applying the 80 percent solution‚ that is, designing your software to meet the needs of at least 80 percent of your users. This type of design typically favors simpler, more elegant approaches to problems.
If you try to design for the 20 percent of your target audience who are power users, your design may not be usable by the other 80 percent of users. Even though that smaller group of power users is likely to have good ideas for features, the majority of your user base may not think in the same way. Involving a broad range of users in your design process can help you find the 80 percent solution.

I appologize in advance if this seems offensive this isn't directed toward anyone I'm just disaponted.
Like Peter1952 Stated

I recall having to write macros because Excel did not provide certain functions in its early days. I suspect that when spreadsheets were first invented there were many things missing that we now take for granted. However I would expect those things to be included in a spreadsheet today even if it is only at version 1.

I have MetLab and other Data Analysis tools to use that requires a lot of programing the Data Analysis Tool that is available on excel Make it simple.
It just easier with that tool. Hopefully the creators that made this software will look into it. Like stated before it seems that the tools we suited more for the aesthetics of spread sheet. You keep stating the 80 rule well it seem to me that most people who use spread sheet are more worried about the ability to present there data the best way possible. Microsoft recognized it, not to say that the ones who made numbers didn't this just might have been there initial try to see what we really want and need. I do research too since I'm asking for the tool I understand the 80 rule just like the tool I'm asking for, if i understand right you weren't there during the process when they decided what have and not have in available in number. We don't know what method the used to determine the tools that were to be made available to us at this point. Maybe we'll never know. All I do know is that it not available now. I don't mean to sound abrasive it just frustrating me that I really bought iwork for numbers. and I really haven't been able to use it other than pages. I was told it was way better that excel in many was it is, some way it falls short. I was under the impression like pages it was an upgrade with upgrades they better the original and as you stated

If you try to design for the 20 percent of your target audience who are power users, your design may not be usable by the other 80 percent of users.

I guess what your really saying is the programer know better than the users. The users who do use the tool tend to use it all the time and just like many features some users don't even realize that they have that function available to them. But thanks any way for enlightening me. I keep these ideals in my head the next time we're deciding if an implant will cause mortality or not. and remember that I need to only please 80% of the users. lol

Koenig,

Do you believe that statistical tools such as ANOVA, histograms etc is not needed for 80% of the users? (this is an actual question, not a rhetorical sarcastic question). If you believe that is the case, what about the potential users? Here is the drill for me, I think there are many people like me and the person who started this thread that in fact need these statistical tools. In Apple's keynote presentations, it was stated that the macbook is a very popular computer among students and education users. In my university, about 90% of the graduate students have to take at least one statistics related course. Our options are to get, among others, office, iwork or neo-office. None of these offer statistical data tools (I refer to things like a simple histogram) in their Numbers equivalent. If you have a PC and office, you have data tools integrated to excel. All we want in academia is a spreadsheet software that integrates a statistical data tool command to do simple data description, inference and estimation. Our request is that some company offers this for a Mac. Obviously, anyone involved in academia will acknowledge that for a more elaborate study, someone would need a statistical and/or mathematical software such as Gauss, SAS, MatLab, STATA among others.

I hope I have chosen my words carefully enough so that I do not offend no one.

Message was edited by: pauloqs

90% of the graduate students

Graduate students in Statistical courses are normally provided with statistical software for this purpose.

My office is into Six Sigma, which requires alot of the statistical analysis, and they provided one package that we are expected to use for all of our work. We can display the data as nicely as we want to, but the numbers are expected to be run through their package.

Your also talking about Graduate Students. Not a very high percentage of all users are graduate students. I would assume less than 20% of Numbers users.

I completely agree with Yvan on these points. Until a significant amount of requests come in for a feature they aren't going to assign anyone to it.

Notice how many people were wanting to track jogging times, durations etc... for home use. Enough persons asked for better time handling that the designers looked at exactly what the users were trying to do. And they made a completely new DURATION data type. (which I LOVE).

Just my 2 cents...

I have a feeling this debate will continue as long as people think everyone uses the function or feature they are missing. I remember one guy thinking that everyone used R1C1 notation in their equations. I am the only other person I know that even rarely uses it. And I taught more than 3,000 corporate users over 3 years. Not anywhere near a required feature, but he thought it was. 🙂

Have a great time with the new '09.
Jason