display anomalies

This seem like a software bug, watch the video.

Here are some photos, when I try to do a screen grab the lines disappear.

They seem to like new windows in Apple Mail.

The computer eventually freezes and dies.

Check the following pictures and video for behavior.

http://gallery.me.com/forwardacoustics/100008



Thanks in advance!

I hear you on your logic there, obarkovic. Sadly, you are wrong here. The graphics behave abnormally on any OS (Mac OS, Windows XP, and Linux). Even-though, I have not tested it on Linux, other contributors have. This is very plainly a hardware problem.

Hello I went to the local genius bar today with my problem.

He insisted that it was a software problem and I was puzzled but we booted up into 10.5 and no problems and then booted into safe mode and no problems.

He said Apple has had some problems with drivers for external monitors and that I had symptoms of that.

Anyways, anyone know how to boot in safe mode and turn on specific kernal extensions... ie the video driver extension.

Also is it possible to run in safe mode and just turn on the extensions one by one to see which one causes the problems?

Specfically can you turn on the Airport card extension in safe mode?

thanks
o

Your situation may be a software problem, but here's the reality... if you suffered what a great many of us here are talking about, all you would have had this friendly Mac Genius do was open iPhoto, iMovie or run a movie and let it get hot, then enjoy the graphics artifacts show and crashing and hanging!

After repeated duplication of the situation in brand new and known good system installs, PLEASE STOP MUDDING UP THE MESSAGE WE ARE TRYING TO GET HELP WITH... FIX THE FREAKING ATI GRAPHICS CARD ISSUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to second the response from user mgcjg. Also, I will add the following.

obarkovic wrote:
Hello I went to the local genius bar today with my problem.

First of all the genius bar is not the best place to receive tech advice. These "geniuses" are given a two-week crash course on all things Apple. These are NOT info-tech professionals. I am sure dotted across the country there are even some over-qualified people at the stores who give fantastic advise, however more often than not these are college students in need of a job with a passing interest in computers. The only reason I would go to an Apple store is to jump through hoops for Apple's recently acquired bureaucratic monstrosity. Not to mention, when push comes to shove they are probably told to work on behalf of "Apple's interests."

He insisted that it was a software problem and I was puzzled but we booted up into 10.5 and no problems and then booted into safe mode and no problems.

You should not make assumptions based on brief sessions in different start-up modes. This is due mostly to the fact that this problem is *heat related*. Therefore, the laptop needs the opportunity to raise its temp. Furthermore, Safe-Mode is likely to skew you perception because Quartz Extreme (hardware accelerated graphics) as well as iMovie video capture are disabled in this mode.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1564

He said Apple has had some problems with drivers for external monitors and that I had symptoms of that.

"External monitors." Hmm, doesn't seem to even apply to this issue.

Anyways, anyone know how to boot in safe mode and turn on specific kernal extensions... ie the video driver extension.

Also is it possible to run in safe mode and just turn on the extensions one by one to see which one causes the problems?

Specfically can you turn on the Airport card extension in safe mode?

I am starting to wonder if you work for Apple. You seem heIl-bent on attributing this problem to software despite overwhelming evidence and claims to the contrary. Also, you are diverting the focus of this thread. First off, to enable/disable the Airport extension will provide no further insight. To enable/disable extensions of any kind will not help to determine anything because this is a *hardware problem*. The Windows XP splash screen (640x480) displays the anomalies as scattered pixels of varying colors other than the standard black background. This was actually the first symptom I ever noticed and it steadily became worse when it appeared in the Mac OS.

Finally, my goal here is not to make you feel unwelcome on these forums. However, you need to understand that for most people, this thread is a means to an end. Preferably as quickly as possible. I needed to dispel the poor advise you were given and get the thread back on track. Also, by looking at the photos you posted on *mobile me* I am convinced you have the identical hardware problem the rest of us claim.

Cheers,
Marcus

hey guys, i'm as eager as anyone to get this issue resolved, but lets try to be a bit kinder yeah? obarkovic - we're all pretty frustrated on here because we've all been experiencing exactly the same problems on our ATI MBP's regardless of software for the last 18 months or so... and we've all been given the run-around by Apple "Geniuses" who seem completely and utterly unwilling to accept that this is a hardware issue. so therein lies our frustration - i'm sure that if you share this problem, you will come to feel the same way. i'm not sure why you want to try to isolate the problem with regard to the Airport card "extension" (i don't believe they are 'extension's any more but anyway...)
did someone bring this up to you as relevant? in any case, do this: spend a couple of hours streaming video from Hulu or what have you... if you don't experience any visual artifacts (as described in this thread) or screen freezes then most likely you have a different problem then us folks here... i hope you do - since there's only one fix for this problem and its an expensive one... hence our frustration...
ok cheers,
b

ps - you do have an ATI Macbook Pro right?

Sorry just trying to help.

I don't work for apple, I have a small business and I would like my Macbook to work.

Yes I would like to have a software fix cause I don't want to pay for a new laptop or repair and I can't run my business without it.

I apologize for sharing what the Genius bar person said, I thought that would help.

What I really don't understand is:

If it is a hardware problem why does it only affect certain windows at certain times?
Why does resizing the window eliminate the problem?
Do smaller or larger windows create more heat?

I have all my temps at below 40C with a fan control app and my video card is:

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1600
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 128 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x71c5
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-xxxxxx-158
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.158
Displays:
Color LCD:
Resolution: 1440 x 900
Depth: 32-Bit Color
Core Image: Hardware Accelerated
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Quartz Extreme: Supported
Built-In: Yes
Display Connector:
Status: No Display Connected

I can guarantee a crash when in Safari 4 beta I hit Apple T to open a new tab and the window with all the most recent sites (which I love) come up.

If I do that 4-5 times boom freeze, itunes playing like nothing is wrong and everything dies.

Also if I select 8-10 - 1 page PDFs and simultaneously open them in Preview it crashes.

Wouldn't the video card affect the whole display rather than certain windows and at certain sizes, you can see that in the video I posted.

If the GPU was overheating wouldn't the whole display fail, not certain windows?


cheers
o

I took my MB Pro in two days ago with the same problem everyone is posting about. They kept the computer for 3 days and then gave it back to me with no trouble found and no repair. I was able to reproduce the error at home and go back in with screen shots today. This time they immediately ordered replacement parts and gave me an estimated repair time with no funny business. So if you can get screen shots that seems to help a lot in getting service. Also, if you are getting it to reproduce the effect for them in the store, Hulu seems to really speed up the process.

Can't wait to get my computer back. Is there anything I should do to prevent this from happening again? Should I expect my new logic board to be more robust than the old one or is it just a matter of time before the new one fails again? Anyone have long term experience with a repair?

So I thought I was alone in dealing with this problem...that is until I stumbled across this discussion thread. I am relieved to know that so many people out there are having the same issue that I am. I purchased my MacBook Pro in August of 2006 and have not had any issues with it until now. While I'm working, especially with multiple programs, I will randomly get the garbled lines, the triangles of color, etc. I realized that it had to be an issue with heat because as we all know, the first generation of MacBook Pros are referred to as "that mac". My AppleCare expires in two months so I am going to head to the apple store on Monday to see if I can get the logic board replaced. I took screenshots of the issue and am hoping that by showing the guy at the store the screenshots and this thread, they will send my computer out for repair. It is a shame that Apple acknowledged the issue with MacBook Pros that have the newer Nvidia graphics cards, but not the older ones that had the ATI cards. Unfortunately, I don't believe they will ever acknowledge the problem. Hopefully, getting the logic board replaced will allow my computer to run properly for another two years before I purchase another computer.

Well I just want to post to this board as well to put it on record how frustrating it is to have this problem with my Macbook Pro. Mine is a couple of years old and has the ATI chip as well. It is obviously a design issue which makes the computer overheat causing the lock up. Recently I downloaded SMC fan control and it has solved the problem for the most part, but I have the fans jacked up to 5700 RPM to keep it cool. You constantly hear the fans fired up and it does get a little annoying. Also after installing leopard I had to raise the fan speed because for some reason I noticed that the computer was running a few degrees hotter. Well luckily for now my Macbook pro is working, but I do really hope that Apple recognizes the problem and puts together some sort of replacement program.

Fact: I can reproduce this problem over and over, this is a hardware problem, not software...

Since I use my MacBook Pro with an external cinema display, I set it on my desk next to a fan that constantly blows on it to keep it cool. I don't experience any graphic anomalies or display freeze ups. Then, I turn off the fan and the MacBook Pro gets hot as usual, but obviously too hot, since I then either have my display/system lock up immediately or I get the graphic anomalies followed by a display/system lock up.

So, I no longer consider this MacBook Pro a portable, unless I can also have a fan wherever I go to use it, which is lame for even a desktop... and this MacBook Pro is totally useless to pass on to someone else, especially a new Mac user, since it'd be embarrassing and wrong to have to have them use a fan as well.

I understand there are sometimes manufacturing defects and exceptions. I understand what AppleCare does and does not cover. I just can't believe I was having symptoms prior to my one year warranty expiring and within two years this MacBook Pro became basically an unreliable brick. I've owned several dozen Macs and used them since 1984. I am a very happy and loyal Apple customer and Mac fan, but Apple I'm not the only one and this ATI issue is not a small exception... it needs to be addressed!

obarkovic - it sounds as if you might be experiencing some kind of software issue as well as the kinds of problems we are discussing in this thread. its a pretty simple test really - create a new account with all 3rd party apps off (don't just restart into safe mode as that confuses the issue see above) and see if you are experiencing the same issues. my MBP will show EXACTLY the same issues. please note that "crashing" in the sense of applications crashing is not one of the problems we are talking about here. our problems are 1) display artifacts (that can be window specific and can sometimes go away with resizing) and 2) total "screen freeze" - display totally frozen, audio continues. sometimes the screen goes black as well.

so that said - larger vs smaller windows making more heat? well, i don't know but ANYTHING which makes the GPU work is going to produce more heat, the number one offender seems to be streaming video - i.e. Hulu but large docs in Photoshop etc or even just having the MBP on for any length of time can do it.

and no, GPU problems don't have to effect the entire display in a consistent manner - think about it the GPU is sending and receiving 1000's of instructions every few seconds, when it starts to freak out all kinds of weird stuff can happen.
BUT eventually of course it DOES result in catastrophic failure! i.e the "screen freeze" or blackout.
cheers,
b

obarkovic - I don't know if you were addressing your tip to me, but let me confirm... not only have I repeatedly tried to troubleshoot using a clean new user account, but I as mentioned before, I have tried a completely fresh new install of Mac OS, in fact a completely brand new hard drive with a new install since this MacBook Pro has become so unreliable and useless... simply let it sit, without a fan blowing on it to keep it cool, and if it doesn't start having display anomalies or freeze, then simply open iPhoto or something with lots of graphics demand and BAM! You're screwed!

Now, I've sat back idly for quite a looooong time, hoping Apple was going to offer to repair these, first hoping a promised system updated (or hoped for firmware update) was going to fix it... well, a couple updates came out that were supposed to address some display issues, but NO it did not resolve this ATI related issue...

Now, after waiting too long, I'm not going to sit idly until somehow someone will acknowledge that this is an ATI hardware defect issue and be addressed.

Here's some more trivia, in case someone wants to offer more tips, tricks and magic to somehow fix this issue, when it is 100% a hardware defect...

- I used to work at Apple as a Mac Genius
- I ordered this on my last day at work so that I could use my last employee discount purchase
- I heard a whining noise when I first got it, but heck, we had several customers come in and complain, but at that time we were only somewhat officially repairing them, as noted here...
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1823
- I decided I did not want to cause Apple any extra expense to repair mine and thought the whine was not that big of a deal... especially after calling AppleCare and the dude said, it's just your fans making a bit of a noise, no worries
- Before my one year warranty expired, I started experiencing slight display anomalies, but I thought it was system software related. I also experienced a freeze or shut down occasionally, but usually only when I was using iPhoto or something of the nature
- I then took it in and asked if I could get it repaired but the turn around time was five to tne working days and I could not be without my MBP for that long at that time
- Shortly after that, my one year warranty expired, and I suffered increasingly
- I waited for software/firmware updates watching Apple to see if some help would somehow surface
- I went into the Apple Store and despite some of my previous coworkers still being there, they and the new employees really didn't think it was a hardware issue and I was out of warranty so they said they were not able to help
- I called AppleCare and inquired about the KB linked above and they gave me the same rhetoric that I had to tell customers, just like any corporate, or especially retail employee wold have to follow by stating policy to the customer. They told me it was not an issue enough when I was under warranty for me to fix it then, so it should be ok still now. Plus, when I told them I understood the script they were following since I had been an Apple employee myself, but felt that they should be compelled by the situation to consider granting a "CS" or "Customer Satisfaction" approval to remedy this, they pretty much gasped as if betrayed and said that I should know that there is nothing they could do... I've said those words before, but not for something like this and told them I was very disappointed and have had pretty much a useless product just after a year of buying it...
- I've since purchased a new unibody MBP and LOVE IT and I LOVE Apple, but whoever is in charge of this issue needs to step up! For decades, I always defended Apple, knowing they were not perfect, but they always tried to do the right thing... but now as you can see, I am a HUGE believer that if someone inside Apple has not made the right choice or acted quickly enough to correct something, I HATE it since it causes damage to Apple's reputation. So, I am pleading, not just for myself and my defective old MBP, but for all those that have suffered and have heard about this, only to taint Apple's image... PLEASE GET THIS ISSUE ADDRESSED... ASAP!!!!

Sorry if my last post was hard to read... I see now that the dashes I put in to separate the bullet list I posted were removed and did not get posted...

Also, my reply was actually supposed to be for bennettvonbennett who was helping obarkovic... but of course, I did not think bennettvonbennett gets the depth of how much most of us, if not all, have tried to fix this 100% defective ATI hardware related issue!

hey all - i thought i'd just take a minute to describe my current techniques for minimizing this issue. unfortunately, there is no real 'cure' short of replacing the Logic Board (IMHO) and all these strategies do is make my MBP a little more functional...
BUT - they do help, so in a spirit of helping my fellow men (and women), here's what i'm currently doing:

1) first - and perhaps most important - never use your macbook on a soft insulating surface, like a blanket or a bed or a pillow! obvious i know, but i like to watch movies on mine in bed and i now use one of those laptop tray thingys they sell at borders. anyway the point is that the vents are right along the back under the display and if they are blocked at all you will *very very* quickly overheat. so try and always work on a hard flat surface.

2) another low-tech tactic: i shut down my MBP whenever i can. i never used to shut my Apple laptops down, never had to. at night i'd usually just turn the display down all the way, or sometimes i'd put them to sleep... this MBP seemed fine with this treatment for about 12-15 months, but now i find it gets and stays too hot. turning if off is the kinder gentler way.

3) i run Fan Control, i used SMC Fan Control for a long time, but found that i was always fiddling with it and it was annoying. Fan Control is a Preference Pane which means i don't have to worry about launching it or it quitting or what have you, and with the proper settings it seems to work better than constantly tweaking SMC FC - these are the settings i've been using:
Base Speed 2200 rpm
Lower Threshold: 48 °C
Upper Threshold: 70 °C

4) I run Coolbook - a relatively recent app apparently developed to deal with this problem in both the ATI and Nvidia MBP's! this program works its little magic by "undervolting" your CPU, reducing the amount of voltage it uses. the developer's claim that this doesn't effect processing speed or performance (which is apparently dependent on frequency not voltage), and my completely unscientific purely subjective experience has been that this is true - i haven't noticed any performance hit. maybe some MBP gamer out there should do a frame rate comparison before and after, but until then i'm gonna keep using it.
the documentation on this app is pretty abominable so after much trial and error, here are the settings that work *for me* - i'm not going to go into detail about what these mean, go get the app and you'll see what they mean then ok? it would take more energy than i have to explain these settings - that's if i even understood them.
Adapter Pairs:
2171 MHz 1.1000 V
2004 MHz 1.0875 V
1837 MHz 1.0875 V
1670 MHz 1.0750 V
1002 MHz 0.9500 V

Battery Pairs:
2171 MHz 1.1000 V
2004 MHz 1.0875 V
1837 MHz 1.0750 V
1670 MHz 1.0500 V
1002 MHz 0.9500 V

Throttling Level - Medium
Temp. Limit - 75 °C
Throttling - Active
Coolbook - Active

Coolbook takes some tweaking - i had to play with these settings for about half a day till i got it working right - too little voltage and you get kernel panics! basically you lower till you get panics and then come up a notch till you don't, sounds scary i know but using my figures as a baseline more or less eliminates that step - again, these work for me so you might be different, but not - i imagine - all that different.

5) this last app doesn't actually help reduce temps but its invaluable - iStat. this little app displays vital info in your menubar - CPU/GPU temp, Fan Speed, CPU load etc - and like all the other apps here - it's free!

---

So, what's the outcome of all this effort?
well - my MBP averages about 48-55 °C, much better than without all this stuff! the fans like to run themselves around 3200-3500 rpm most of the time which is noisy but not intolerable (earbuds help). it behaves itself just fine if i'm doing non-graphic intensive things like writing and editing documents, surfing most of the web (see below), even using Logic. if i'm going to do something like check out some heavy bandwidth Flash sites, or do a lot of Photoshop work, i keep one eye on the temp reading but with this setup i rarely have to do anything more than sometimes take a short break when the artifacts start to show up. if i'm going for broke and trying to watch a full length feature movie on Hulu, or a 90 min Flash video then i manually turn the fan up to 6000 rpm with SMC Fan Control, and then when (not if!) the display artifacts start to show, i take the battery out, and take more frequent 'cool-down' breaks.

but - overall the result is that my MBP has been transformed from being nearly unusable to being usable nearly all the time.
i'd like to hear if these things work for anyone else... or better? or worse? or not at all?
i got sick of holding my breath and waiting for Apple to help with this problem. i still feel cheated, and i still want to keep making as much noise about this as possible in the distant hope that Apple will heed our call - but at least, now in the meantime, i can watch 5 min Conan O'Brian clips!
cheers,
bennett