Q: display anomalies

i found this, and this is the truth:

did some testing.

_My symptoms_ were as follows:

1. Graphic artifacts during light gaming

2. Random screen (system) lockups while gaming (hard reset needed then)

3. Spontaneous restarts when gaming

4. The above led to lines on screen (app windows) after I quit the game. Lines were exactly like those shown in post 1 of this thread. I only got the lines, no color gradients on screen.

_So what's going on?_

Various reasons can cause this behavior, but after testing with some fancy utilities I pretty much established the cause - *it's bad soldering of video memory chips*. Declocking the VRAM does not help, which means it's not VRAM overheating or chips failure.

It's BGA soldering points failing in Radeon X1600's VRAM chips. There are 8 of them on the logic board in my case (128MB VRAM).

Not surprisingly this happens more frequently at higher temperatures, or when the chips are 'stressed'. It may be also connected with heat cycling (running hot/cold/hot/cold, then it starts to fail mainly when it's hot).

So it's really not an overheating issue per se. In my case the GPU never exceeded 65* Celsius - this is OK according to spec.

I also noticed that in my case if the GPU stays below ~54-58 deg Celsius, nothing really happens.

But let it work a little while at ~60-65* Celsius and graphics will fail imminently.

What one can do about it?

This could be the solution:

1. REBALLING of ALL video memory chips. This means changing all the soldering points (connections between the memory chips and the logic board) to new ones. This can be done in a specialized service point (non apple) and should cost about 100 bucks at most.

2. REFLOWING of ALL video memory chips. It might also work and should be way cheaper, while it's also way easier to do. This basically means trying to fix soldering points that failed so far but doesn't really guarantee anything.

You do not need to replace the whole logic board.

If you're out of warranty and your problems with graphics are really, really, really bad, you can try point 1 or 2.

Otherwise I suggest you try the following.

Workaround:

While not eliminating the cause +at all+, in my case the following *eliminated all the symptoms*.

Not all of the following is necessary but I'd recommend you do it to help your chances:

1. Total disassemble of the logic board, replace thermal compound on the CPU, the GPU and the logic board Chipset. . This will help keep them cool - which will help keep the video memory chips cool also. Take a peek at ifixit.com

2. Use CoolBook to undervolt your CPU. I know a lot of people hate this tool. +But it really increases your chances here.+ It is a tricky game so be careful. While it's not a free tool, it's really worth a go. It simply allows to keep the CPU very, very significantly cooler when undervolted (it can still run at max performance of course, that's the point). Remember, CPU's heat effects all the logic board and airflow inside the Macbook, so it also warms the GPU and the VRAM chips this way.

3. Of course, finally use smcFanControl or Fan Control to keep your fans running at higher speeds then normal, without hurting your ears. Ideally you should get below 50* Cel. on GPU when idle and max 54* when gaming. In my case this means running at around 3900rpm when idle and 4900rpm when gaming.

I use CoolBook, +Fan Control prefPane+, and have also replaced the thermal paste (a while back when I had a chance). My Core Duo 2.0GHz now runs at 48-50* Celsius idle, with GPU at 46-48* Cel when idle.

This is *a lot less than stock temperatures* of MBP1.1 and *in my case I got completely rid of all the symptoms*.

Sounds not that bad now, does it?

There's a downside though.

I've been using CoolBook and smcFanControl/Fan Control for a long time. Now I just increased the fan speed really.

This means my CPU/GPU/VRAM/Chipset were working in a way cooler Macbook Pro then in someone else's case.

What I mean is that in your case if your Macbook has been working frequently with stock fan and voltage settings (so CPU at ~85-90* Celsius), the logic board components (and solder points) might have gotten damaged/stressed way beyond expectations. This means that in some cases the logic board replacement might indeed be needed now.

If in your case the problems also appear when the GPU runs above around 55* Celsius, then my advice is:

If you're out of warranty and don't feel safe about reballing/reflowing, and if you're also screwdriver-literate, go for the workaround I mentioned above.

It's a bit of work but should pay off. No warranty though, good luck.

In case you have questions mail me at gplayerallegro at gmail , com .

i have to tell you that i'm running fine 10.7.2 but when cpu is fully load and reaches 60-65°, my system freezes. so i didn't find any solution, neither reflowing it (i tried 3 times)

system freezes even with coolbook, undervolting cpu with settings that i found on internet for my machine (mbp 2,2; 2.33ghz;x1600 256mb)

Hello all.

Thanks to all the passionate people here, i managed to fix (for now, hope it will last) my mbp c2d 2,33ghz, ati radeon video.

I did the reflow thing  with a heat gun.

Fresh lion install.

Everything is working perfectly so far.

Happy me.

jerome.

jerome, how did you do the reflow?

how many minutes? how many C°?

any sustem freeze when you reach high temperature?let's say 60C° cpu and 50 C° gpu for almost 10 minutes

Alex

the heat gun was set to low, ie 380deg celcius. I've applied heat on the entire mother board (as there are no reason why the contacts are bad on the video chipset and better everywhere else.), on top of it and benath for 2/3 min per side.

The components were very hot (almost untouchable by hand) but i paid attention not to burn the circuits. (which is hard to quantify i have to admit).

From then, i vent been able to overtake 60deg cel cpu and 55 gpu. If you know a process i can try to load the cpus, let me know and i will tell you.

My fans are set to 3000 rpms with icyclone, which is a good compromise to my opinion between noise and cooling.

Hope this helps

I feel there is a design flaw with the MacBook Pro and the ATI graphics. It may be physical hardware, chipsets, firmware, software or a combination.

But, I found that the problem consistently revolves around heat, and others have shared the same observation.

If you are experiencing overheating, then you should install the smc Fan Control. This utility will let you turn up the fans, while displaying the current internal temperature.

I've found I can reduce the temperature from 170ºF to 140ºF without going to sleep, stopping my Photoshop session, and best of all, not losing my current work. I no longer spend more time pressing cmd-S than I do editing my images.

http://http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/23049/smcfancontrol

Installing and configuring this utility has saved me a lot of headaches. Setup profiles and have one that runs the fans at the highest speed. That way, when you notice your computer is above 150ºF, click the fasted fan speed and it will cool down.

To run heavy Photoshop and maintain temperature, I found myself setting the fan around 3000 RPM. The sound is noticeable in a perfectly quiet room, but it's white noise, not a shrill whine, so it helps mask background noise anyway.

I found this thread after I installed Linux on my 2006 MBP 1,2 with ATI X1600 and noticed graphics anomalies and frozen pixel patches.

Even in Linux, the graphics problems occur when system is at a higher temp.

I'm going to try the remedies mentioned in the trove of posts relating to this issue, and report back.

Just found this thread after a few instances of display problems on my 2007 vintage MacBook Pro.   First problem was a 1.5 inch wide blank bar along the bottom, which would occasionally clear spontaneously and other times would require re-boot.   Today the re-boot came up with vertical lines in the display.

Have now installed smcFanControl and the temp is running about 59-60 centigrade.

Question:  Will the display correct itself if temperature is the problem and I manage to reduce it?   Or do I have to reboot anyway?

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Ray

I've been monitoring this X1600 community forum for the past year and a half and am running an early 1,1 MBP re-manufactured Core Duo 1.83 with Leopard minus suggested ATI kexts. Machine will function for period of hours with SMC on top of a cool book, then freezes. It does boot everytime since going back from Snow Leopard which locks these things up. Before bricking this computer, I decided to call Apple and see what post-Jobs customer service was like. Afterall, I bought 3 iPhones, 3 Macs and 2 iPads in the past year or so. The phone rep was encouraging and said he knew about the issue, but that it was handled on a case-by-case basis at the local stores and they had fixed MBPs out of warranty up to 5 or 6 years later. He sent me to the Genius Bar with a case number. I made a Genius appt. and brought the machine in to recount the story of this well-documented issue. The local Genius automatically pulled out the NVIDIA kit, and I quickly corrected him that this was an ATI issue. He ran an MRI diagnostic which showed fan failure-- but this was after a safe boot and the SMC extension was not in the menu bar. I showed him after booting again that the SMC was indicating both fans spinning at 5000+ RPM and you could hear them. His solution was to send me to the local authorized re-seller (whom I know well since the '80s and which already had no fix for this laptop, other than replacing the logic board!) I told him this was unacceptable and that the Apple phone guy had even mentioned re-flashing firmware that was updated circa '08 that seems to have triggered these issues, regardless of operating system. He said the machine was too old to check-in for service and wouldn't allow it to be entered. At this point a manager came out and said that he would help me out on the purchase of a new machine; just great. It seems Apple is done with us on this issue, even loyal customers. This week, I bought an HP TouchSmart 520 for the kids. They love playing Starfall and Windows 8 looks promising. So long Steve...

the display correct himself after a while : it take about 6 mins to go down in temperature when you start smcfans.

for me, if i'm not under 42 ° celsius, i have artifact and lines...

I run smc fans at 5800 rpm for minuts, looking with "Temperature Monitor" at the °

also, I need to say that i use coolbok to et up my macbook pro at 1002 mhz, at 0.9500 volts.

for some application xhare i need speed, i put it at

1.837 MHZ at 1.O125 volts, without any problems (with battery one)

it is really less hot, and have the same speed...

You can really see the strange lines disappear, if you cool it down, but it need really a 5 / 6 minuts of colling down.

If you try in a minut or so, it will hang up for a hard reboot, or will give you, in the best , strages lines

I'm sick that Apple dont understand out problem :

They do, but prefer to do a return for some ipod touch

I'm sorry, but 1999 $ 4 years ago could get a better attention from Apple...

Because it is a hardware failure!!!!

My 2006 2Ghz MBP 1.1 has also developed this problem and it is a wonder that the machine didn't die on me considering the heat it was exposed to during my summer in Latin America! From what I've seen so far, in the UK, the cost of having the logic board reballed and/or reflowed is equivalent to purchasing a replacement part.

If I decide to replace the logic board, ideally I'd like to upgrade to one with a faster CPU. Does anyone know what would be the maximum available to me, or would it have to be an exact 2Ghz CoreDuo board?

Really would appreciate some feedback on this as I suspect the existing board is on its last legs!

Thanks,

Jay

Just out of curiosity (I haven't gone through all 72 pages of replies so far), are any attorneys monitoring this thread having this problem with their Macbook Pros? It seems like we'd all have a pretty decent representative or class action against Apple for this particular issue. We shouldn't have to get down to component level repair to fix a manufacturing problem that Apple is aware of... I may be wrong, but it does make one wonder.

Tom

Good point, after all they took care of the MacBook Pro users with the NVIDIA chipset and its not like they were made aware of our problems belatedly.

I am certain now that for me its a hardware issue. I once again had display issues. After heating the board the machine is back to normal. No clearing of software, etc.

For those who do not have a heat gun (like me, although I should buy one), a hair dryer works well for me. But I block the intake so produce maximum heat and minimum air flow. Doing so may trip the thermocouple, but after some trial and error it produces substanial heat without damageing anyting. I usually apply the heat for about 10 minutes. The odd thing is that the solder does not appear to melt, so I am not sure what extreme heating exactly does. Its also funny that heat seems to be its downfall.

I wish Apple would do somthing about this. But now that many of these machines are not Lion comptable, they reached end of life. I think the odds of Apple doing anything is remote.

BTW, before using my machine as a doorstop, I did install BootCamp 2 with Windows XP Professional, and so far, so good. Seems to function just fine and even sleeps again (wouldn't do that in Leopard with ATI kexts gone). I will utilize the Wintel side of this legacy machine until there are no more drivers, updates, etc. to support it.

John0 wrote:

 

Hmmm, well it's certainly not the ATI X1600 problem that's for sure, as you have the GeForce card!!! And it doesn't 'look' like the kind of screen a GPU issue would display...

Greetings!

May I ask up to what "kind" of screen a GPU failure can display?

I mean, can a GPU failure lead to inverted pictures (red being cyan, etc.), to greyscale pictures or rotated ones (just some examples)? What "can" the GPU make when it fails?

(always interested in technical descriptions).

Also, I've noticed the mouse cursor doesn't suffer from these video anomalies. I know this mouse cursor is "layered" differently than the whole screen, but does that always imply the mouse cursor can't be affected by GPU failures (other than the GPU not running at all, of course)?