Q: display anomalies

I did some testing.

_My symptoms_ were as follows:
1. Graphic artifacts during light gaming
2. Random screen (system) lockups while gaming (hard reset needed then)
3. Spontaneous restarts when gaming
4. The above led to lines on screen (app windows) after I quit the game. Lines were exactly like those shown in post 1 of this thread. I only got the lines, no color gradients on screen.


_So what's going on?_
Various reasons can cause this behavior, but after testing with some fancy utilities I pretty much established the cause - *it's bad soldering of video memory chips*. Declocking the VRAM does not help, which means it's not VRAM overheating or chips failure.

It's BGA soldering points failing in Radeon X1600's VRAM chips. There are 8 of them on the logic board in my case (128MB VRAM).

Not surprisingly this happens more frequently at higher temperatures, or when the chips are 'stressed'. It may be also connected with heat cycling (running hot/cold/hot/cold, then it starts to fail mainly when it's hot).
So it's really not an overheating issue per se. In my case the GPU never exceeded 65* Celsius - this is OK according to spec.

I also noticed that in my case if the GPU stays below ~54-58 deg Celsius, nothing really happens.
But let it work a little while at ~60-65* Celsius and graphics will fail imminently.


What one can do about it?


This could be the solution:
1. REBALLING of ALL video memory chips. This means changing all the soldering points (connections between the memory chips and the logic board) to new ones. This can be done in a specialized service point (non apple) and should cost about 100 bucks at most.
2. REFLOWING of ALL video memory chips. It might also work and should be way cheaper, while it's also way easier to do. This basically means trying to fix soldering points that failed so far but doesn't really guarantee anything.

You do not need to replace the whole logic board.
If you're out of warranty and your problems with graphics are really, really, really bad, you can try point 1 or 2.
Otherwise I suggest you try the following.

Workaround:
While not eliminating the cause +at all+, in my case the following *eliminated all the symptoms*.
Not all of the following is necessary but I'd recommend you do it to help your chances:
1. Total disassemble of the logic board, replace thermal compound on the CPU, the GPU and the logic board Chipset. . This will help keep them cool - which will help keep the video memory chips cool also. Take a peek at ifixit.com
2. Use CoolBook to undervolt your CPU. I know a lot of people hate this tool. +But it really increases your chances here.+ It is a tricky game so be careful. While it's not a free tool, it's really worth a go. It simply allows to keep the CPU very, very significantly cooler when undervolted (it can still run at max performance of course, that's the point). Remember, CPU's heat effects all the logic board and airflow inside the Macbook, so it also warms the GPU and the VRAM chips this way.
3. Of course, finally use smcFanControl or Fan Control to keep your fans running at higher speeds then normal, without hurting your ears. Ideally you should get below 50* Cel. on GPU when idle and max 54* when gaming. In my case this means running at around 3900rpm when idle and 4900rpm when gaming.

I use CoolBook, +Fan Control prefPane+, and have also replaced the thermal paste (a while back when I had a chance). My Core Duo 2.0GHz now runs at 48-50* Celsius idle, with GPU at 46-48* Cel when idle.
This is *a lot less than stock temperatures* of MBP1.1 and *in my case I got completely rid of all the symptoms*.




Sounds not that bad now, does it?
There's a downside though.
I've been using CoolBook and smcFanControl/Fan Control for a long time. Now I just increased the fan speed really.
This means my CPU/GPU/VRAM/Chipset were working in a way cooler Macbook Pro then in someone else's case.
What I mean is that in your case if your Macbook has been working frequently with stock fan and voltage settings (so CPU at ~85-90* Celsius), the logic board components (and solder points) might have gotten damaged/stressed way beyond expectations. This means that in some cases the logic board replacement might indeed be needed now.

If in your case the problems also appear when the GPU runs above around 55* Celsius, then my advice is:
If you're out of warranty and don't feel safe about reballing/reflowing, and if you're also screwdriver-literate, go for the workaround I mentioned above.
It's a bit of work but should pay off. No warranty though, good luck.

In case you have questions mail me at gplayerallegro at gmail , com .

Update:

Now it's running the third or fourth day after the 'workaround' above. I've done around 6-8h gaming since and there were no glitches or artifacts.
Hard to say if it'll get rid of the problem entirely, but so far so good.

Mr John Doe has completely summarized every single thing i have also concluded after all these many months of struggling with this problem. the workarounds i used were identical to his - reapplication of thermal paste, running Coolbook and Fan Control. i completely agree with him re: Coolbook i found that this app significantly helped reduce running temps. in my case my numbers were almost exactly the same afterwards (running between 53-58 degrees depending on GPU load).
i also completely agree with regards to the solder joints - in fact, not to toot my own horn, but in one of my first posts on this thread i suggested exactly the same thing (well maybe i'm tooting it a bit :))
it always seemed logical to me since more heat = lower conductivity and the solder joints seem like they would be the weakest link.
anyway, i also agree that there is a cumulative effect after too much overheating that probably results in increasing and irreversible damage.
in my case, *even with all the workarounds*, my logic board died an early death about a month ago after only *three years* of life. the source of the failure according to the certified Apple repair center that looked at it was the *graphics card component* of the logic board - no details as to whether it was a failure of the solder joints or something else tho.
so insure your MBP's while you can!
good luck to all. i'm still working on possible 'outside' solutions but i don't want to say anymore on this for the obvious reasons.
cheers,
bennett

oh - i forgot to add, two more things that i found helpful:
- using a Heatshift Thermapak pad to absorb some of the heat (especially helpful if you're working in bed and not on a hard surface etc). i'm not talking about the dubious benefit of those fan based plastic laptop doohickeys - the one i'm talking about uses a chemical process to absorb heat - i found it quite effective as long as you let it cool off for about 5-10 minutes every couple of hours of heavy usage.
- the other thing is extremely simple but i found it also helped keep temp lower - *turning off the machine when i'm not actively using it*. for some reason letting it sit *even if the machine wasn't supposed to be doing anything* would produce extremely high temps. that's stress your logic board doesn't need (see the previous post). i also found this to be true sometimes when i would put the machine to sleep. i have no idea why this would be the case but the bottom line is that my machine ran cooler (averaged over time) if i shut it down when not in use.

ok - good luck all.
b

Hi Everybody,

You all seem to be having problems when the temperature goes up. Mine is a bit different. I am using a MBP 2.16 Core Duo with X1600 radeon, 17 inch.
I left my machine running by night last week downloading some torrents, when I leave it on I always dimm the screen to when the backlight is off. The next morning I woke up and I wanted to brighten the screen but nothing happened, finally I forced it to powerdown. Had to go to work so left it turned off.

When I got back in the evening I powered the machine up, but it crashed when the blue screen came available with the mouse arrow, After a few times of trying to boot I booted in safe mode and everything seemed fine. I did a lot of googeling around and I found out it could perhaps be the X1600 chip. So I disabled the drivers and rebooted. SUCCES! At least I have everything working so I can use it for audio editing, but video's and video rendering don't work at all.

Is this the same problem? Or is it the X1600 just broken, maybe resoldering could help?

http://www.royalz.nl/MBP.jpg Screenshot

yup. not to put it too harshly - but you're screwed. even if you get it working again it's just a matter of time now before it dies completely. there has been some discussion about resoldering the GPU (search this thread) but no one seems to have actually had it done - perhaps because it's rather expensive by itself - at least I think so. when I enquired about it I remember the price being something like $500 not including disassembly etc. of course disassembly isn't terribly difficult if you're handy, and $500 is cheaper than I new machine - so maybe it's worth looking into. if you go ahead and get it done please post and let us know what happens.
as for myself - it's too late for it to matter, my machine died a month ago and I used the insurance money to buy a new MBP - we'll see if I made the right decision in a few years. this one will be insured too, count on it. since I obviously can't rely on Apple to do the right thing I have to look elsewhere for guarantees.
good luck

I have a MacBook Pro 2.0Ghz Intel Core Duo with ATI x1600 from May 2006

I am having all of these glitchy problems mentioned in this thread. Weird pixelations, freezing, etc. Never had a problem until I upgraded to Snow Leopard a few months ago.

Problems have become so awful, I just wiped my machine and downgraded back to Tiger. Starting fresh but without as many problems now (and without all my programs). I backed up most of my stuff, but still, what a hassle!

I really liked Snow Leopard, I wish I was able to use it on this very expensive machine I bought. Extremely disappointed right now.

Well its been a while since I posted here and nothing much has really changed, other than a trip to the Apple Store. After I scheduled an appointment with one of the Genius's I brought my Macbook in to have it looked at. The Genius I spoke to was very helpful and explained to me that this model of computer was made to run at above average temp's and he does not discount the possibility of thermal breakdown over time. He wrote up a diagnoses which stated that the computer was running excessively hot and he offered the Depot program. I explained to him why at this time, I had to refuse to put more money into a machine that should not have these problems due to a chipset designed. Also due to the many valuable post here in this discussion board, I am somewhat apprehensive about putting in the same logic board with a very limited warranty. He then referred me to a customer Relations Expert and said they have more latitude in dealing with this problem.

Well later today I am expecting to speak to someone and with fingers crossed, maybe I will find some resolve without spending more money on this machine. I have been a long time Apple supporter and love all of the products they make. This was the first generation Macbook pro's to be released and obviously due to a design issue they overheat with time. I realize it is a major undertaking to compensate everyone with these machines, but hopefully they see that there is so many people with these heating issues, the appropriate action will be to repair these computer with at no cost to the owners.

Well I will make sure I post my results within the next day or so and if no progress is made I think before I use the Depot program, I will try the thermal paste remedy next, along with checking for the tape that is blocking the vent on the fans. Jack...

Well, good luck if you do get contacted by an Apple rep. The truth is, people have repaired this, it is not a long term solution, as this hardware ATI GPU has a defect and design flaw... and when you get it repaired it only will have a 90 day warranty... very, very, very sad.

While I would stay far away from threatening them, you might want to mention that there are law firms investigating a class action law suit and I as well as a great many of others I am in contact with are about to embark on an underground campaign to use YouTube, FaceBook, etc to get Apple's attention to address this issue. We all love Apple and have purchased many of their products and will continue to purchase products from them.

The sad thing is that this ATI GPU and this MBP design is wrong and Apple or ATI (now owned by AMD) has not made things right. Since this can not truly be repaired, the only real remedy is for Apple to offer a credit towards the purchase of a new replacement and that is not only the right thing to do, it is what we all need to request and not rest until we are heard.

Time is passing and these MBPs are aging and getting replaced at the owner's expense... and are becoming more and more of a forgotten misfortune. While this is true, many of us are going to make sure we are heard and that it will not pass until the situation is made right.

I hope this post does not get deleted, like a great many of them have, but let the Apple rep know that there are a good number of us that are actively pursuing resolution and while we are a small exception in numbers, that does not mean we should be ignored, or will be, and should only mean it'd be easier and less costly for Apple to do the right thing and issue a credit or some solution to resolve this and then let it all pass...

As per my conversation with the Apple rep today, I am going to try to and sum up my conversation as accurately as possible. During our conversation I tried to emphasize the magnitude of people having this very same issue. The rep was very knowledgeable and tried to be very helpful, but it was obvious where the conversation was going. As of now the issue is really not that well known. I gave him several reasons why they need to reconsider their position and I gave them some websites to review including this one. The rep explained to me that there is a person, higher up the Apple chain, who looks at the number of failures each component or model of machine sustains and based on that number, a decision is made about whether a extended warranty or some other remedy is warranted.

I then explained my position on the Nvidia extended warranty and how it is a little disheartening to think that if you buy a machine on or about the same time and experience a similar type of failure, and based on you choice of ATI or Nvidia, you are penalized.

Don't get me wrong I am thankful for the Depot program Apple has, but again explained why I am reluctant to shell out more money for the same chip and MB with the high probability of failure. It seemed to me that the rep was listening and wanted to help me, but brought up Apple Care and how I should have originally purchased it. I then explained to him that even if I had, I would still be out of warranty. He agreed but again wanted to emphasize the importance of purchasing an extended warranty and I admitted that next time I will, but for now I do not have the money to just fix the machine.

I then went on again about my beige G3 from 1998 and how I still use it. I explained to him that based on that, it has always been my impression that Apple computers far out last any other type of computers due to their awesome build and design quality and this was why I have not purchased Apple care in the past.

I could go on forever regarding this issue and why I think we should receive an extended warranty, or flat out replacement of these machines due to the many reported heat related issues, but I won't.

As our conversation came to a close, the rep advised me that if I pay for the replacement MB it is under warranty for the 90 days and that if I experience a failure during that time, my case will be reviewed again. He also reassured me that this website along with some other information they use to determine the severity of the problems regarding our notebooks, will be forwarded to the people who decide whether to extend warranties, but that this is a long shot.

As for mentioning the Law Firms and some other types of legal action, I just casually advised them that there are people out there actively pursuing a remedy this way, but I currently am not. If people are going to raise awareness of this issue using the media, I think it will make it so you never have to explain the issue again to a rep, because it will be so well known and hopefully it will expedite them to make good on our Macbook Pros. Lets hope anyway.

Again please remember this is only a summary of my conversation but please let me know what your opinions are. I feel I put up a good argument as to why we should be covered but sadly I feel we have a mountain to climb. Believe me though I am just as diligent to see this situation made right as any reasonable person would. I guess that no matter how good my argument was, how much the rep wanted to help, I just knew that until Apple recognizes the issue publicly, you better pony up the cash for the repair. Thanks...

My machine is out of warranty as of May 2009. I had extended my Applecare and of course, didn't notice issues until after the fact that it was through. While I was under warranty, I didn't notice any of these heating or monitor glitches. However, I did have a frayed Magsafe cord, took to Apple, they replaced (under warranty still).

However, now I'm on my 2nd frayed magsafe cord and went to Apple and they wouldn't replace it, even though articles on the web and on Apple support said they would replace them, even out of warranty. Now-- since this monitor glitch issue brought me to this forum, I've found out it stems to heating issues. Which is probably also why so many Magsafe cords are fraying. Anyone else? Anyone have any luck or advice on how to get one replaced out of warranty? Should I bring up the fact of this faulty ATI chip? I feel like I have two main problems with my MBP (screen glitches, magsafe cord) and because I'm out of warranty I don't know who to talk to or what my options even are. Help?

The only thing you can do really is to keep complaining to Apple about this. If everyone affected did keep pushing the issue with Apple they would have to listen. However, it is so much easier to do nothing and think "I'm sure someone else will do something". Of every 100 people affected by this design flaw who have been brushed off by Apple, most likely only a handful will try to do something about it. The rest will just take it nicely and think "It's not worth the hassle." When I had been turned back by their customer relations rep on my umpteenth call to them I decided to share my experience with as many people I could manage. Apple has a page which lists user groups all over the world here…

http://www.apple.com/usergroups/find/

Wouldn't it be interesting to see just how many of their members have the same issues? I'd say many people affected by this are completely unaware that so many others have the same issues. Perhaps even Apple don't realize how widespread this problem is, and until they're made aware nothing is going to be done about it. I could keep calling them all by myself until the cows come home but they stopped listening a long time ago. But if everyone affected persisted in calling them…

If people with the X1600 card who don't have issues yet would start taking precautionary measures now before the damage is done, they could increase the life span of their machines and hopefully avoid, or at least postpone this mess. It may be too late for me and you save our logic boards but for those who are yet to experience the first "symptoms" it may not be too late.

I spent many hours emailing MUGs about this, but again I'm only one person, and one person raising his voice is usually ignored, but many people raising their voices make others listen.

No they do not. They actually would make a sad picture. If you want to make a real difference then don't buy Apple anymore. But then again, every other company would dismiss you in such a case just like Apple does. "We do not recognize that issue at this time" etc.

I'm still running pretty great on my MBP 1.1, Snow Leopard is wonderful, but overall I've had so many problems with this Mac that it's not worth wasting time fighting with the company now.
Apple knows exactly what's going on, they can use google too I might think.

My battery died completely after 50 cycles, the power adapter cord melted a month ago, I have an inverter hissing inside when brightness is below 100%, the CPU is also hissing (supposedly Core Duo issue, ShhMBP helps here), and now I learned the logic board is defective and on its way down. On top of that there's a universal overheating issue. Apple may state it's a design "feature" not a flaw, OK - but my laps do know better.


Back to the subject,
Just to update you guys, after all those workarounds my MBP is still OK and I haven't witnessed any issues since. I manage to keep my temperatures below 54-55*C for CPU and below 52*C for the GPU pretty much all of the time.

*I also tried a little mod to help keep the MBP cooler:*
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7530/fabric.png
You can cut it with a paper knife and tear the black material off.

Now the MBP can suck fresh air through the speakerholes. It did knock a few degrees off both for CPU and GPU in my case. After that the lowest temperature for GPU I noticed was around 44*C. Hard to say why Apple covered all the holes in the first place.

I have a MacBookPro1,2 (september 2006) so I'm totally out of warranty.
I had several issues with it. 2 batteries deformed and one power mag melt changed by apple for free, the dvd burner gave me bad issues and started not writing dvds anymore (replaced with another one i had to buy) and now since a couple of months this video card thing that doesn't allow me to use my computer as i should do. Reading the thread here and there i didn't see anyone mentioning about boot camp. I had problems with it since the beginning with the only video drivers working being the ones from the very first bot camp version. After some time of use (like 2 or 3 hours playing some 3d videogame) they started giving me exactly the same problems i have now using plain os x (mostly green pixels "sparkling"). Anyone experienced the same thing? I asked about the issue at Apple store and they told me they can't be responsible for problems using windows. Wasn't the campaign promoting the new intel macs based also on the fact that people could use both OS? That means they advertise something they are not able to deliver then.

To deal with the overheating problem I booked an appointment at the Apple store with a genius some time ago, went there and despite him being quite open to help me he couldn't do anything as the test they usually run didn't give any bad result and i couldn't warm up the cpu enough for the issues to rise. He asked me to take some pics of them and go back to them with some evidence of the problem. I collected tons of them and i'm going to book another appointment and see what will happen.

As many of you already said i think it's totally unfair from apple to make us pay any money for a problem that is clearly related to a bad design with the risk to see the problem rising again in the future. I don't think we should be blamed in any way for not buying applecare, we bought a product that is far more expensive than any other laptop on the market and we should expect it to be reliable as any product in any kind of market is. I wonder what would happen if a car had a similar issue and many people got stuck with the engine overheating.

I've been following this thread for a couple of months now and all i can see are good workarounds (thanks a lot to anyone who gave help) which for some people are a bit too difficult to apply (i bought a very expensive computer, i don't want to lose my time just because Apple sold me a defective product) but no solutions. <edited by host>

Sorry for my bad english.