39275 Views Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next 64 Replies Latest reply: Mar 27, 2009 6:18 AM by sheryltoo Go to original post
Thanks for taking the time to provide the information on what I should be looking for in the charger. This was very helpful. Just a few responses to your comments:
My first clickwheel Classic iPod came with the car charger and an AC charger unit. They only offered this for a short period of time to students (it actually came in the box and was not a promotional accessory or anything) and then switched to only the AC charger.
My roommate’s 3rd generation Nano charges just fine on my HiFi, although my 4th generation does not. So something has to be different between these two models.
I understand that technology changes and then this was an issue some time ago, but that some of us just now understand it as we upgrade our iPods. However, our time lapse in realizing this issue should not negate our frustration or excuse the problem with this change. Your JVC example is a valid point, but not analogous to this issue. I assume your TV and satellite box are of different brands which chose different technologies, while Apple is now making new products, under the same model name, with the same port, that operate differently. I have had a similar issue with my HDTV, but was not frustrated by this because I realized that my TV was only had one connector for my cable, but not a second because it was made before BluRay players had been produced and the BluRay/HD controversy had been decided by the adult film industry. I don't expect my products to be prophetic and forward compatible, but backward compatible as is the unstated rule with most technology.
Additionally, I'm sure that your JVC HDTV specified what types of connectors it had when you were looking to purchase it. When you added another component more than what the TV specified it could accommodate, you are now responsible for adapting your hardware. The fact that Apple store employees and customer service representatives have not had any answers for why my new iPod won't charge on my year old HiFi or AC adapter (and others on this thread seem to have had the same experience with these employees) and companies (including Apple) are replacing these charging devices and stereo parts still under warranty when they aren't charging a new iPod exemplifies the secretive way Apple seems to have gone about this change. Simply putting out a press release or specifying on the tech specs page of the non-firewire charged iPods something similar to what you have mentioned on this thread would have been helpful. The page states that the 4th generation Nano requires a USB 2.0 port and has a rechargeable lithium ion battery, but should specify what type of charging this model requires if it differs from iPods of the same name, but different generation. Even the fine print at the bottom of the page talks about the how the battery life is tested on specific chargers and that the battery life may diminish over time, but does not mention the type of charging required.
The bottom line is: I'm fine with the technology change, but it needed to be made clear. Write it on the web page, put it on the tech specs, or even change the shape of the charging port so that it is clear to your customers!
I appreciate all the information provided, but your responses come across a little smug. I think it was you that asked how someone could buy hundreds in chargers... Keep in mind it isn't just the chargers that I have 3 cars, multiple in some so that we we take long trips, the kids can charge their iPods... Not to mention, most folks don't just get chargers, they get chargers/FM transmitters which are expensive. And not to answer for the guys that spend $70 on his and $40 for his wife.... Let me give you my version of the answer for that question... Once a $70 cable stops working, you aren't in a hurry to buy another. If I pay $70 for basic wiring and basic technology, it had better last. If it doesn't may has well get one that's more disposable... I've found $20, charger/transmitters that lasted as long as the $70 ones....
But it's also all the equipment used to listen to your music... Clock radios, stereo systems, mini-speaker docks, etc.... I almost bought a Van that had the iPOD docks in the back seats as an option. Whew - close one there I suppose.
This change is really indefensible. As an Engineer myself, I would have been fired if I came up with something that obsoleted so much equipment upon product release. Forget hundreds, I'll be I have a least a thousand invested in stereos for myself, wife,
3 kids in various locations that basically can't charge. Oh, and the whole shake and shuffle which chews thru your battery... Nice - Thanks! (Thanks for nothing.) (Great feature, but when you sell a product which out of the box can only be charged via your computer and takes longer to charge than to discharge - it's just another straw.) Sure you can disable it, but now I've got to disable features to enjoy decent time with the product... What kind of a sham is that?
Lastly, please FORGET the firewire defense... I can take the same plug which has a USB end from my computer and plug it into a wall to USB adapter/charger and it doesn't work. So it isn't just a firewire thing. Which means there is something in the Firmware that should fix that.
Apple really should be ashamed of this one. This is something I'd expect out of Microsoft. Not something I'd expect from a company of history of intra-product compatibility like Apple.
It's clear that Apple felt it wasn't getting enough money so it's going to stick it to loyal customers and make them run out and buy new accessories.
Here's the thing, there's that saying fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. There are plenty of people that will be much more hestitant to buy the next iPOD product. For those of you willing to 'deal' with it, what do you think less iPOD sales will do to budgets at Apple for their next product? What will offset that? Higher itunes song costs? More expensive accessories? Etc... Don't think that it won't come back to hurt you too in the long run.
Even with one transmitter for each car that is about $210, not the "hundreds" of dollars the other poster referred to.
As an engineer, if you were make products for another company and more than 4 years ago they discontinued firewire syncing but had USB charging/syncing and an unpublished ability to charge via firewire would you continue to design your products using only firewire 12V charging? And then, if that vendor advised you, two years ago, that they would discontinue use of the firewire pin and charging circuitry in two years would you continue to build devices that used the 12V circuit to charge?
And if you are really an engineer I can't imagine why you would state "it isn't a firewire thing". They no longer have a firewire pin to charge through nor a firewire charging circuit so no firmware change is going to have an impact. The charger you are referring to may be defective.
If I go buy a new Logitech PureFi Anywhere 2 (which I did) how does this make Apple extra money? If you buy one of the adapters for my car? (I did and I will buy the new BMW cable when it is available).
Apple has nothing to be ashamed of in this, technology moves on. I've upgraded my home video system lately which meant going HDMI instead of DVI, etc. Should all the electronics manufacturers be ashamed? I would think an engineer would be used to this.
This all was bandied about when Apple moved exclusively to USB syncing and dropped Firewire syncing on iPods. Didn't seem to hurt sales all that much.
I assume this thread is to try to help people solve their issues so I'll try to stay on task. I can't figure out if you aren't reading what I wrote or I'm not clear. I'll assume it's my fault.
As I said, I have transmitters and also extra chargers for our road trips which we are on nearly every weekend. (By the way, $210 == more than one hundred and does qualify as 'hundreds', but the impact to my various stereos, etc is much greater than $210. The single mini component system with iPOD dock is that much alone.)
How does Apple benefit from Logitech sales? I'm assume licensing of Apple technology. Second, the more equipment that specializes for Apple the more it helps there market share. (I.e. As I said, there was van that I had looked at
which had iPOD docks in the rear seats for passengers. If I spent the $45-60K for the van, would I run out and by a Zume?)
Again, NONE of my plugs are firewire. I don't have MACs so only one machine out of the 6 has firewire capability. I use USB. Those USB cables work when plugged
to a computer, but not when plugged to a USB power adapter.
Why would I expect compatibility? Oh maybe because its the same CABLE!!!
Even the same USB cable that came with our iPODs from 4 years ago work with a
computer. (Again, it isn't a firewire thing. I'm not using firewire. If it works with an old and new USB cables and doesn't with a USB wall adapter it isn't
a firewire issue. I'll have to see if the cable specs are published, your note seems to indicate that it isn't. But when you have a USB end on the cable, your assumption is that it follows the USB standard. So when I buy a USB wall adapter, it should provide power assuming the USB specs were followed. The only thing a USB adapter does is at AC power and converts it to the right power on the USB cable. Since it's the same USB cable that works with the computer and produced by Apple, the USB <-> iPod connection is Apple's.)
If you bought a home entertainment system and found out that the new version of
a component used all the same cables but didn't work as you connected it back
to your system, you'd be upset. Let me see the butt plug of the iPod is used for power, sync'ing, control, music and video output by many devices.
So that would be the same as your new DVD player using HDMI output but you have
to buy a new TV to make it work even though it's the same cable used with your old TV.
It uses an electrical AC plug, but you have to buy a converter to get it power. Your universal remote now longer works and so on....
Lastly Apple has had a history of compatibility, by an accessory such as one that was firewire-based, and it was good for life. It was an admirable trait from an engineering view point... 1) To be able to foresee the needs of the future and build standards that would stand the test of time, 2) to then work to make future products backwards compatible.
I'll be honest, I would have rather Apple just made a different connector that didn't
take the old plugs. It would be much more transparent to see that it wasn't
compatible with all your existing things and the consumer could visually see the
difference when searching for replacement products instead of relying Brand X
packaging information or your local electronics store salesman.
It is a firewire issue, but not a firewire cable issue. On iPods prior to the 3rd Generation Nano, 2nd Generation iPod Touch, iPhone 3G, pin 29 on the dock connector was a firewire charging pin and the internal circuitry on the iPod could accept the 12V charge from the cable on pin 29 and charge the iPod. This is why the iPod cable on my BMW will charge my 5th Generation iPod with Video and my 2nd Generation Nano. It will not charge my iPhone 3G and it will not charge my nephew's 3rd Generation Nano. But I bought the Passport, connected it to my cable, and it will now charge all of these devices.
I have no idea why your wall charger (is this an Apple wall charger?) is not charging your Nano, it may just be a broken charger. If it is working, and you are connecting an iPod cable with a USB connector on one end, connecting to the charger, and the docking connector to the iPod it should work.
The wall charger isn't an apple one but it isn't broken either.
I the store I happen to have my 60G iPOD and tried it with a iPOD USB cable and it charged just fine. I get home and try it with the Nano and it doesn't work.
The problem is the if you are going to make a change like this you have to force vendors that are licensing from you to use a symbol of compatibility on the packaging. I bought a little speaker dock with had the little 'made for iPOD symbol on there and said it supported Nanos. It wasn't specific of which Nano and of course it doesn't work. All the is in the past month. So I can understand if I bought something 2 years ago and it didn't work. But things that I've bought recently don't work. I'm sure apple controls the licensing for the vendors of these products. And if not change the iPod side of the cable. But a USB cable that works with a wall changer for an iPOD should work with a Nano. Again firewire has nothing to do with this - have nothing firwire based. I can't tell what the vendors are using when its component to ipod, but I sure as heck know that my cable is USB on one end and iPOD connector on the other. Sure there maybe some folks out there who are impacted by the firewire change but please don't assume that everyone is. There is something else going on here. I would guess that if my situation was fixed, half of my accesories would start working again too since most of them were recent purchases.
I'm not sure why your charger is working on your 5th Generation but not on your 4th Generation Nano, why don't you make a Genius Bar appointment and take them all to the Apple Store. Or perhaps your Nano has a defect. But if you are an engineer you would understand that the lack of a firewire designated pin and charging circuit is the reason these newer devices do no charge with any peripherals that used that pin, and 12V, to charge iPods. And this began with the 3rd Generation Nano released a year ago.
But you are trying to bring an entire issue down to one charger apparently. So try a different 4th Generation Nano on it. As far as the peripherals you just purchased it doesn't mean they were manufactured in the past 2 months. The Logitech PureFi Anywhere will not charge a 4th Generation Nano. The Logitech PureFi Anywhere 2 does. I did my research, went to their website, searched the threads here and made sure before I bought it. And their site doesn't just say Nano compatible, it lists the specific generation.
In the meantime you can purchase the Passport and make your accessories where they can charge you 4th Generation Nano, or Griffin is releasing a similar product. Or not. Your choice.
I've tried another 4G Nano.
I'm not trying to bring the entire issue to one charger. I'm merely discrediting
the theory that everyone's issues are all related to this firewire pin. It's you that's bringing everything down to this firewire pin and I've told you that isn't the only issue.
And I know it IS NOT the charger because it charges my 60G iPOD.
So once again, no firewire involved: USB wall charger + USB iPOD cord works with
60G but not with Nano (either one of two Nano's). Same USB cord works with computer. The wall charger only has a USB connector NO FIREWIRE.
There is something also different on how the Nano is using the USB standard.
Anyways, your bottom paragraph is where I think Apple dropped the ball on this.
Now, I have to know when an accessory product was manufactured? You have to research each accessory via their websites? Does that sound like a great consumer friendly plan? On top of the hundreds bought on equipment, I have to know
got out an spend another $30 / accessory to make them work again?
Even the Scosche site leaves you wondering what you are getting. If you click
on the 4G Nano accessories, some of the items listed say specifically 'the passPORT is specifically designed to fix the charging error associated with several iPod and iPhone accessories.'
But others under the 4G Nano don't have have this message (i.e. the revive* series of items listed).
So it's under 4G Nano, I'm guessing it was manufactured recently, and some
of the items are USB based (i.e. requires the USB iPOD cord) and others are
direct connect. How do I know it really works? (i.e. charges and plays w/o any
message popping up on my Nano.)
Sorry, this is a Bozo show in Engineering and Marketing.
You can keep trying to defend it but consumers shouldn't have to jump thru these
hoops. And it's apparent that their vendors aren't ready for this level of
complexity in their product packaging either.
Look anytime you keep having to stick up a 'which iPOD do I have?' help link
to lay bread crumbs for your customers, something is screwed up.
So we are back to taking the two 4th Generation Nano's, the charger, and the cable to the Apple Store.
Looking around here you seem to be the lone person with this problem.
The USB "standard" is 5V. If the charger puts out a full 5V it will charge.
Of course you have to research electronics and when they were made. This goes not only for iPods but any electronics. If you go to a store and they have a TV deeply discounted that you want to buy you have to be sure it has the correct connections for say your Satellite box. The Satellite box uses HDMI. The "new" older TV you buy only has a DVI input. Not going to work.
Unless, of course, you fix your own problem by buying an HDMI-to-DVI adaptor. And so on and so on. Technology and electronics have always been thus. And how could accessories made before the iPod models were released anticipate the new one. Want another analogy, look at software and compatibility in formats.
I guess we could have just stayed with parallel and serial ports and avoided all of this.
My suggestion would be that you do your research and replace all your MP3 products and accessories with something else that will never change in the future.
Well after Christmas I went out and bought a Belkin USB wall adaptor (charger) and it works with my 4th Gen Nano but not with my old nano, so I think the problem with the old one is the battery... Anyhow I have run a standard USB cable from the wall adaptor to my iSwing and success! I now have a dock that charges my nano! Only problem is I have to plug both the adaptor and the dock into a power outlet but meh... at least I don't have to go out and spend another $150+ for a new set of speakers! Now to find a decent charger for my car... It's MP3 compatible so I'm thinking an MP3 cable and a car charger... If I get the old batteries changed then hubby should be able to use the old nano in his work vehicle.
So ... let me get this straight ... an after-market company like Scosche is able to create a little plug-in device which can allow both firewire AND USB based power to a 4th generation Nano ... and sell it for under $30?
If it is physically possible for this to occur ... why wouldn't Apple just have done this in the first place as part of their internal design? That is, allow the device to charge by 2 methods and keep the friggin Firewire pin activated in addition to the USB 5V. It only has to pull in power by one or the other at a time.
This Nano is my first iPod, a gift from my family for Christmas, and does not charge from the docks on our TEAC table-top stereo, our home stereo, our car adapters, or any other device in the house except the computer. If Apple 'authorized' all these dealers to make compliant products, they should take the necessary steps to ensure backwards compliance.
Deggie - I understand your argument that technology moves on, but the last stereo I purchased had inputs in the back for co-axial cable, 3-wire RCA connectors, 5 wire composite video, s-video, dvi, and HDMI. Other manufacturers seem to have the impression that they should continue to support discontinued connection standards, in order to keep customers with the BetaMAX machines, 1st generation LCD TVs, analog VCRs, and turntables happy. I mix sound for live concerts as a hobby, and we just purchased a 1-terabyte solid-state drive for recording the shows (solid state is the same technology as the iPod uses) ... guess what ... the connectors are RCA and 1/4" cabling ... with mini-USB, USB 2.0, and CAT-5 cables for electronic connection. Point is, customers who want repeat business have to think beyond 3-year product replacement cycle ... and think about how the 'latest and greatest' is impacting their bread and butter customers. If you are licensing others to make 'compliant' products, then force them to also build the workarounds for past and present product at the same time. I, for one, will never look at a sticker at Best Buy that says 'iPOD Compliant' the same way again.
Sadly, this experience of 1 month since Christmas with an apple product has been sorely disappointing to my family who gave the gift and owned all the peripherals that they'd hoped could charge the new device, and to myself who had higher expectations. I won't be a repeat Apple customer, and I'm definitely not going to start upgrading all the accessories and peripherals to accomodate this one new iPod.
For illustration, I'm currently running my iPOD into my home stereo with TWO connections ... one from the headphone jack into an RCA splitter and into the stereo's inputs ... and the other from the iPOD port to a wall power USB 2.0 power adapter. It's the dumbest thing going, ugly, messy ... but the only way to not run down my iPOD every 2 hours if I just want background music while working at home. If I wanted to just run MP3 files from my computer, I would have played them out of WMP or WinAmp. The beauty of the iPOD and docks was that it was so neat and clean with just a dock that is visible ... it was otherwise no better at sound reproduction than other MP3 players on the market for half the price.
Don't even get me started on iTunes ...
They did used to have two charging methods, with the firewire charging method not documented, but discontinued it with the latest versions. It is a cost savings method for them (possibly $30) and I would guess they have other plans for the firewire pin. It also saves them room in the iPods, if you noticed the Passport is sort of large. They did supposedly tell accessory makers they were going to discontinue firewire charging, and considering firewire syncing has been gone for about 4 years you would think that accessory makers would have taken the hint.
So buy one of the adapters (the Passport or soon Griffin will have one and you can count on more) and charge your iPod.
Don't know if you've noticed but a number of receivers do not include input for phonographs anymore. If you want to to play that vinyl you have to buy a phone preamp stage. Such is life.
The good news? There are lots of MP3 players on the market, if you really are that upset about this you have lots of choices. And since it really packaged as a iTunes+iPod package, and you apparently don't like iTunes, maybe a change will do you good. Of course you will have to buy new accessories.
Were you around when Apple dropped firewire syncing? They seemed to have been able to sell a few iPods since then.
So we are back to taking the two 4th Generation Nano's, the charger,
and the cable to the Apple Store.
Looking around here you seem to be the lone person with this problem.
This statement is incorrect.
The USB "standard" is 5V. If the charger puts out a full 5V it will
One would think so. However, this is not the case.
I've attempted to charge a number of new 4G nano units (purchased as gifts for the 2008 holidays) on a number of USB power supplies, both house current and automotive ones. In every case, the nano battery runs down. These are all 5.0V USB voltage power supplies. Note that the "Charging not supported with this accessory" message does NOT appear on the nano. The only way that I've been able to successfully charge a 4G nano is to connect it to a computer that has the software necessary to get the nano to display "Connected" or "Syncing".
This is a firmware problem. No 12V Firewire power source is involved here.
Or it is a hardware problem with your Nano(s) or the chargers you are using. The nice part of the USB charging standard is it is just that, a standard. It charges at 5 volts. If it was a firmware problem then EVERY 4th Generation Nano would be unable to charge on USB chargers.
And if that were the case we would have seen a lot more posts here.