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hardness test

I have a question. What is the specification for the hardness of the plastic used on the nano?

I have access to testing equipment and would be happy to do a Brinell Hardness test on my nano to determine if it is up to spec.

I work in an industry that uses testing standards to determine if a product is as advertised. ie. astm specs. ect.

I am sure there is a scratch resistance specification available for plastic. Can APPLE please publish their internal spec.s so customers can determine if theirs meets the spec.

Best regards, Mark

Posted on Sep 27, 2005 2:50 PM

40 replies

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 7:54 AM in response to Tark Bunch

Tark,

My background is materials engineering. (VIRGINIA TECH)

I have worked for the last 23 years in the Steel industry.

I can however assure you that the plastic industry and the consumer electronics industry has purchasing specifications that are extremely detailed. For example, I was told by Dupont that one of the raw materials that I sell might require 5 or more years of testing and evaluation before they could consider allowing it's use in their product blend.

I am certain that Apple knows exactly the hardness/scratch resistance specification for the plastic used in the nano.

The problem is that I as the consumer do not have access to this information.

When I watched the roll out demonstration, and Steve Jobs pulls his nano out of his watch/change pocket of his jeans, I take him at his word that this product is designed for that purpose.

Now the question has been put, does this product scratch easily? The only objective way to resolve this is testing against the OEM specifications.

I cannot give a pass or fail evaluation without a qualifying standard from apple.

Tark Bunch

Level 4

1,065 points

Sep 28, 2005 8:32 AM in response to MARK KOHLER1

Mark,

thanks for your clarification regarding your background. The nano surface I suspect is cast and not machined.

A machneable material should conform to a specific criteria.

I don't know if the nano face is polymerized when it is cast or if it is cast from a raw thermo-plastic. If I understand correctly, thermo plastics usually come as granular material that may not lend themselves to a hardness test (I could be wrong here).

I do know that in the manufacturing industry, you spec out what should to be a quality indicating attributes, but sometimes later when the product is in the field that there is was a previously unidentified attribute that if impacting the quality of the product and now requires defining.

The hardness of the nano display may fall into this camp.
A rude surprise to both Apple and the consumers who purchased "soft" nanos.

Fortunatly form me, my nano is pretty hard and reasonably scratch-free (but I'm not going to send it to you for hardness testing 😉

PS: Apple engineering tolerances may be part of Apple's IP and Apple may not wish to disclose these unless under a signed confidentiality agreement between Apple and its suppliers.

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 9:18 AM in response to Dana Kincaid

Dana

You carry a cell phone in your pocket?

Sure do. Half the time it rolls around the floor of my car or in the center holder on rental cars.(my mini-van does not have a hoder so it goes on the floor beside the bucket seat so I can find it in the dark without taking my eyes off the road.)

Does it get scratched?

No, it is a clamshell design. I think this is the reason that despite being very thin, the motorola razr remains a clamshell design.

This is why I have concluded that the nano is a design defect. The plastic is very soft(how soft I am trying to determine) and yet Apple sold it as a
pocket portable device. Now they say: that's crazy, of course it will sratch, get a case!

I would like my money back.

I am told no. There is nothing defective about the product. We will not refund your money.

As a lifelong engineering salesman, I do not treat my customers this way and will not tolerate being treated this way.

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 9:45 AM in response to Matthew Morgan

Matt,

The US Mint has determined that the design/material selction of the new 1 dollar coin is defective for just this reason.

The "gold" color alloy selected has been shown to quickly tarnish and become discolored.

The US Government of all people have admitted that this was a mistake and have discontinued minting this coin.

If the US Government can admitt a mistake, I suppose APPLE should be able to also.

G5gyrl

Level 4

1,503 points

Sep 28, 2005 9:55 AM in response to MARK KOHLER1

Try the scratch repair kits. I think this is getting blown out of proportion. Something had to come in contact with it to scratch it other than soft material of a pocket, take a little responsibility here!

"He also said Apple had received few complaints about screen scratches, and that the iPod nano screen was made of the same materials used in other iPods. He said if customers were concerned about scratches, they should use a case."

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 10:11 AM in response to G5gyrl

TO all who say that customers just need to take better care, add plastic wrap or polish out the scatches, I would like to know if they have any other products that they are willing to exert that much care to protect.

On my desk right now I have an HP 15C calculator.

Many of you will have no idea what this is because it has not been in production for a decade.

However, nearly any engineer who went to college in the early 80's will know this model.

I purchased this calculator in 1982, and have used it daily since.

After 23 years of being carried in my briefcase, rolling around my desk drawer, being chewed on by my children and dogs...After 23 years of being carried into steel mills and refractory plants...After 23 years of use, there are no scratches on the screen.

This is a item that was designed to last and not fail during normal use.

How is the nano designed to be used?

G5gyrl

Level 4

1,503 points

Sep 28, 2005 10:14 AM in response to MARK KOHLER1

If I spend $200-$400 on an item and plan to carry it around, and don't want it messed up, yes, I go through 'trouble' to protect it.

I have an iSkin for my iPod. There are many different ways of protecting it if you can't take proper care, and I like being able to choose which one to use.

Tark Bunch

Level 4

1,065 points

Sep 28, 2005 10:19 AM in response to MARK KOHLER1

My HP15c died many years ago and never went through the tortures yours did.

Looks like I got a defective 15c! 😉

But seriously why is the normal iPod an acceptable product (which has been in circulation since 4th quarter 2001) and the nano is an unacceptable product, when both use the same plastic?

I believe it is an issue of perception. The nano (and the color iPods) have a color graphic display that customers expect more out of.
In the future, Apple could raise the border around the display to reduce the risk of damage to the display, but in the meantime, if people want a pristine display, they should take care of the display.

G5gyrl

Level 4

1,503 points

Sep 28, 2005 10:23 AM in response to Tark Bunch

My digital camera display has scratches, it must be defective! I shouldn't have to use a case! I'm going to ask for a refund!

"In the future, Apple could raise the border around the display to reduce the risk of damage to the display"

I agree, that would help.

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 10:26 AM in response to G5gyrl

well I just gave the previous example to show that I know how to take "proper care" of electronic equipment.

I also have a 10 year old notebook (MICRON XKP 133) that I carried on business travel for 8 years.(It still works 100%, I stopped using it because it was time to replace with a faster model.)

I thought Apple's motto was "IT JUST WORKS"

not "it might work if you carry it in a protective sleeve that we haven't started to sell yet."

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 10:33 AM in response to G5gyrl

If your digital camera was sold to you as being pocket ready, of course you should take it back.

My digital camera has an automatic lense cover that protects it when you turn it off. My wife carries it everywhere without a case. We have not had problems with scratches.

Sep 28, 2005 10:36 AM in response to MARK KOHLER1

GREAT!

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 11:37 AM in response to Tark Bunch

Thanks for your polite response to my post Tark, but I must disagree with you.

The reality and not perception, is that APPLE still has Steve Jobs demonstrating the use of the new nano on their site(I just watched it again)

I have not owed a previous version ipod, so my only expectation was that it would work as Steve Jobs demonstrated it.

I expected no more and no less.

If it must be carried in a protective sleeve (that Apple does not currently sell). I think Apple should remove this special event demonstration from their site.

Thanks again for your understanding and politeness.

I am a very strong believer in "It {should} just works!"

Best regards, Mark

Sep 28, 2005 11:41 AM in response to MARK KOHLER1

Mark,

"The US Mint has determined that the design/material selction of the new 1 dollar coin is defective for just this reason.

Be that as it may.

My example of the quarter is to suggest that some amount of wear and tear should be expected when something is carried in ones pocket - even if the object is made of metal.

Matt

MARK KOHLER1 Author

Level 1

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Sep 28, 2005 11:52 AM in response to Matthew Morgan

So Matt, your conclusion is that the nano should not be carried in a pocket?

If so, why does Steve Jobs demonstrate it that way?

This is my point exactly, if it cannot be used as intended,demonstrated,promoted and sold: by definition it is a defective product.

Best Regards, Mark

hardness test