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Advance MIDI Question #3

I have drum module that has both a hi-hat pad and a hi-hat pedal. How does one configure Logic so that changing the hi-hat pedal position will trigger different sounds when hi-hat pad is hit in EXs24 or UltraBeat? Alternatively, how does one set things up so that pressing a note on a keyboard will cause a drum pad to sound a different MIDI note than it normally does when hit? I have my reasons for wanting to do this as i am making a custom drum controller.

Posted on Oct 3, 2008 6:20 PM

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22 replies

Oct 4, 2008 5:28 AM in response to SmhooZag

I use advanced "Mixing" tips...

I use different instances for the hi-hat track.

I also use different tracks/instruments if needed.
Usually Hi-hat sampler programming on my songs require 4-5 and maybe more tracks... the same for Snare... Kick ... and so on!

I love Real drummers... some of the most famous Italian drummers are friends of mine.
(sometimes they hate me) (expecially when I give them the drum score of the song... but I prefer to work with human musician! I prefer to play music with my friends.

Unfortunatelly the money becomes a big obstacle to the success of my intentions.

fermusic

Oct 4, 2008 2:01 PM in response to SmhooZag

it's hard to see exactly what you are trying to achieve. but if you are trying to achieve a 'round robin' type of effect or choosing a different hihat part via velocity then you can definitely do this very easily in logic.

again you need to start with a single channel midi instrument in arrange and cable that to a cable switcher (which is a special type of fader) or to a transformer. get your fingers dirty and have a look at what these extremely powerful tools can do.

for example, i have set up my mod wheel to control the amount of gain reduction on a band of eq in the channel eq, instead of using filter cut off, for a brass pad. it means it doesn't cut off all the top end and thus the cut off effect is more natural.

you can do these things quite easily - at least a lot more easily than you might first imagine, provide you follow the route of the midi data.

it starts in arrange then goes through a cable to the sound source. you put stuff in the way to manipulate the data.

Oct 4, 2008 3:02 PM in response to SmhooZag

using different tracks require a little bit "open mind" different workflow...

the immediate advantage is:
you can easly export as separate audio files in order to mix your song in a Pro tools HD system!

I think that this is one of the first points that can be explain the others advantage ways...

fermusic

Oct 4, 2008 10:16 PM in response to Rohan Stevenson1

I am trying to achieve realistic hi-hat action. The Roland TD-10 drum modules that i have send out MIDI data representing hi-hat position (how much it is open or closed) in addition to the pad hit. Naturally you would substitute different samples as this position changes, going from a click, to a sizzle, to a wash, to sloppy as one opens the hi-hats while playing the pad.

I have a little experience with the Cable Switcher and the Transformer (two days experience!). It looks like what i could do is use several transformers to filter ranges of the hi-hat position data, and use these to trigger a cable switcher that uses transformers that will change the hi-hat sample (MIDI note). The ONLY problem with this solution is the possibility of hanging notes if the samples change before note off events occur. I will have to think about this some more.

Oct 5, 2008 1:55 AM in response to SmhooZag

yes this is relatively easy thing to accomplish in the environment. why are you using a cable switcher? is that because you have several sound sources in the environment?

what you mgiht want to consider is building up a map - use map inside the transformer. this would simplify things a bit. another possiblity would be to use a channel splitter and a transformer to assign midi channels to the specific notes.

what would be good to know in order to help you more is what exactly is the type of midi data generated my your drum controller and what exactly type of info in needs to be to access the correct sound within your software instruments.

Oct 5, 2008 4:27 AM in response to SmhooZag

seems to be that I try to achieve the same as your result.. 🙂

Personally I prefer to export/recording/bounce as Audio Files or freeze when possible everything before Mixing...
for many reason... (My G5 is not so fast and Mixing with only audio tracks is a good idea after than all parts are definitive).

Uad plugs works better on audio tracks (input gain never exceed the 0dB)
and final, I can easy export my Project ready to go in a big Protools studio.

fermusic

Oct 5, 2008 11:05 AM in response to Rohan Stevenson1

Because the drum kit i am building is unorthodox i may ultimately end up not having a hi-hat controller, but instead use several pads to get the different hi-hat sounds. But i want to experiment as both ways may have their advantages for live playing. From the Roland TD-10 manual it appears that the hi-hat foot pedal puts out a CC message. I am not able to verify this as the FD-7 hi-hat pedal disassembled right now.

According to the TD-10 manual you can have the following possible sounds:

--Open hi-hat
--Open hi-hat sounds of varying degrees
--Closed hi-hat
--Pedalled closed (the "chick" sound)
--Pedalled open (the marching band splash sound)

So with a drum pad that puts out a statuc MIDI note and a foot controller that puts out 0-127 CC messages, how does one configure things to get the above variety of sounds? Impossible?

Oct 5, 2008 12:04 PM in response to SmhooZag

no i am sure it is possible but we absolutely need more information.

i don't know how the sound is being generated or modified by the controllers. until you can say exactly what is going on to get the different shades of timbre then we can't create an environment set up.

you listed the possible sounds and hinted at how they are selected, but are they discrete samples? or are they velocity selected samples that are altered by a cut-off filter or something similar?

if you have something as simple as a note on and a sample select via cc, then you don't even need transformers - you can just do that with the exs really really easily. take you 5 seconds to setup. if you have those samples spread over 2 instruments then you can either combine the instrumnts into a custom instrument or yes, you can set up transformers to map the cc to sample select.

i am not even sure exactly what is going on but i think i can guess. if the pedal opens completely it is the same as pedaling down on a hihat part and it will trigger a sample? hitting the pad at varying degrees of pedal open will modify the timbre of the sound - well at least it is either modifying it or choosing another specific discrete sample.

i am positive what you want to do is possible - easily possible - but we really need much more information.

Oct 7, 2008 10:13 AM in response to Rohan Stevenson1

I am not quite sure as the TD-10 is a proprietary product and although Roland has provided the basics about the MIDI implementation, it does not tell all. I think part of being able to tackle this problem is understanding how hi-hats work and the various sounds you can achieve.

It looks like for most hi-hat sounds, i should be able to make some kind of wiring that will split the foot pedal CC messages into groups and then use these groups to change the MIDI note that the hi-hat pad sounds. You mention a solution without using Transformer and Cable Switch objects but i do not see how. Can you elaborate? If i were to implement a solution today, i would use transformer objects to filter the pedal CC messages into groups. These groups would affect a cable switch that switches between different transformer objects that will substitute the default hi-hat pad MIDI note with a different one.

As for as the chick and splash sounds, the only way i can see how to emulate this is to monitor velocity of of the pedal CC and determine whether the foot stays down or releases quickly after coming down. I do not think this can be done with the simple objects in the Logic environment because you have to to monitor things over time in order to find a condition.

However, not being able to emulate this is not a show stopper as my intention is electronic drums, not to fully model an acoustic set.

One of the problems i still need to tackle in this basic hi-hat emulation is changing samples when i do not hit the hi-hat pad. Example, in a funk pattern, i typically will hit the hi-hat pad with a closed sound, but then let hi-hat sizzle open and then close again with my foot without hitting the hi-hat pad again. Not only is the MIDI note changed to allow for the different open hi-hat samples but somehow those notes must turn on without a pad hit and be at a certain volume. The more i ponder this the more i think that the Logic environment objects are simply not up to the task of such complexity. The envirnment objects seem to have been designed mainly for routing.

Maybe Apple should address this hi-hat problem in the EXS24. This is a core functionality of electronic drum sets. This would be in-line with Apple's business model of promoting Logic for the "live" venue (with Mainstage, etcetera). Maybe some Logic guru out there can provide a envirnment template that demostrates how things can be done? Maybe a hi-hat environment object should be built by Apple?

Oct 7, 2008 1:07 PM in response to SmhooZag

no, no mate....the environment is ideal to create such emulations. you would be amazed at the extraordinary complexity and sophistication to which the environment has been put.

you need to have an understanding of what you are working with. you can set up midi monitors or simply record the information from your roland unit. it is communicating with logic via midi and this information can be routed and transformed within logic to trigger virtually anything. you can even control tempo with your TD-10 if you set it up to do so. you could have it trigger a flute phrase, jump to a different part of the song, mute half your tracks and probably perform a handstand if you wanted it to - but you have to know what info you have and how to get the sound you want.

in order to help you (and it seems i have committed myself to doing that), i need to know what information you are generating and what sound you have that should be triggered.

let's take your example:

you hit the high hat with a closed sound and then open the hat to let it sizzle.

you could make an exs instrument that triggers both an open and closed sound and using the foot pedal crossfades between the 2 samples. you would not need an transformer to do that, you could easily do this just within the matrix of the exs instrument.

or, you could use these conditions to select an exs instrument or sample within your first exs instrument of that precise effect.

Not only is the MIDI note changed to allow for the different open hi-hat samples but somehow those notes must turn on without a pad hit and be at a certain volume


this is very easy to do, but there is more than one way to do it, and that's why we ℹ need more information about what info you want to have manipulate the sound or choose a sample. i don't know if you have samples for these or if you have samples with which you want to emulate the effect.

the fundamental principle is: you have information going into logic with which you can manipulate a sound, or choose a sound.

Oct 8, 2008 10:42 AM in response to SmhooZag

It's not completely clear what your goals are for this project. What is your custom controller going to do that the TD-10 can't?

If you are interested in triggering realistic acoustic samples from Exs24, or Ultrabeat, just buy DFH2, or equivalent. DFH has presets for common drum modules like TD-10 and it will respond to all the detail of the articulations of the module.

If you are working with electronic sounds, then just use the CC from hihat to select the proper samples to be triggered. With electronic sounds, the detail of articulation isn't as important, you're playing more for tone (if that makes sense).

Message was edited by: quadrupolesmurf

Oct 14, 2008 10:58 AM in response to quadrupolesmurf

I've been reading this discussion with great interest. It seems there are quite a few people with electronic drumkits (Rolands, mostly) that need an environment in Logic to allow the hihat to trigger different samples. I would like to get my Roland HD-1 working with EZdrummer and/or Addictive Drums 2, but haven't found the solution yet.

It's easy enough to map the different drums to different keys (in Addictive Drums) by routing the midi input from the drums through a Mapped instrument. The problem is the hihat, which sends out CC#4 data when pressed down. When hit open it sends the A#1 note, and when kicked down it sends G#1. Inbetween I belive it sends out CC#4 values. How do you set the environment up to translate CC#4 values (0-127?) to trigger different notes?

Right now I've mapped the A#1 (open hihat hit) to the open hihat sample in A.D. and the G#1 note to a closed hit. I would be great to have at least one in-between sample triggered when the the CC#4 is halfway down (a semi-open hihat).

I'm pretty new to Logic and the environment, so a step-by-step guide of some sort would be great.

BFD2 has solved this inside the plugin itself, here is a video of how they do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUI3vjCEJxs

I can't afford another plugin, so I'm hoping someone can help me setting this up in Logic with my existing setup. Thanks in advance!

Oct 15, 2008 1:34 AM in response to machineboy

this is very very easy to do.

first thing to understand is that you need to put something in the path of the arrange to the object in the environment. that means the sample instrument cannot be used in arrange - you use a single channel instrument cabled to AD in environment. now you can stick things in the path to do things to the midi.

so in your case all you need to do is stick a transformer in the way to convert cc4 64 (or a number around there) to the note that plays the sample in AD. simply put a transformer in the path and tell it to turn cc4 64 into note whatever, and whatever velocity.

that's for starters. you can then start to work out ways to attenuate velocity, crossfade samples, all manner of tricks to get all kinds of subtlety, once you understand the principle that you start with the midi you generate and it can be transformed or channeled simply choosing the right tools in the environment.

honestly, this is what gives logic the edge over other DAWs and has done for years, but of course everyone feels a bit intimidated by the environment - completely unnecessarily. just get stuck in. i did and managed figure it out myself, and i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer....at least, it is no harder than figuring out how to work a telly or plugging in dvd player into your sound system. exactly the same principles.

Advance MIDI Question #3

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