Bad capacitors

Question

Level 1

15 points

Bad capacitors

I have several eMacs that my wife and I have placed in her 1st grade classroom. We bought these machines off ebay and while all worked not all continued working. I found the thread about bad caps and checked our machines out and found that the ones that were acting up did indeed have bad caps.
Not all of them fell into the serial number range that was published though some did.
I just took another out of service because of the bad cap symptoms and discovered that these caps had the 3 pie sections instead of 4 but were leaking bad.
I don't remember if the article said 3 or 4 sections.
This machine will start and run if it is powered up and down 3 or 4 (or more) times with the power button.
What I wanted to do was check this serial number against the list of affected and found Apple has erased all reference to the issue on the Apple site except for the forums. All links either don't work at all or take you to the eMac support page. Absolutely nothing about bad caps.
I am not a novice and I am Apple certified. I do a lot of out of warranty repair and maintenance.
I am good with a soldering iron so I could replace the caps if I had to but I think that Apple should do the right thing (because they know and admitted to shipping eMacs with bad parts) to continue to fix these machines. Even if they repaired the boards in house or farmed them out they would be further ahead in just the free publicity alone. I still have G3 iMacs that run good with out all the problems the eMacs have.
I know Apple made these cheap for education but there's cheap and there's cheap.
Well I just wanted to put my two cents in because even Apple is flawed just like all human endeavors, just look at the housing market or GM etc.
How bout it Apple? You gonna stand up or dodge and duck like a politician.

MBP 2.0, Mac OS X (10.5.4), lots of other Macs, Apple certified.

Posted on Nov 17, 2008 4:29 PM

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Answer 1

Nov 18, 2008 8:09 AM in response to dpeam

You won't get an officially sanctioned answer from Apple here in these forums.

Instead, take your concerns to (800) APL CARE, choose the Education option, and be prepared to discuss the issue on behalf of that organization. Have a list of the entire lot of machines, by serial number, which exhibit the issue.

While Apple ended the program based upon an extension of coverage for three years from the initial date of sale, that end date is not absolute and may be considered negotiable in light of other information you provide. I can tell you that Apple has told at least one major Apple Specialist—and quite likely many others—that they are unwilling to repair or replace affected 1.25 GHz and 1.42 GHz logic boards on machines beyond that expiration date of the program by extending it to a fourth year of coverage.

It is possible to replace those capacitors, which are available through distribution to organizations which already do this work for customers, particularly for education accounts where this issue is prevalent.

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Answer 2

spudnuty

Level 5

7,128 points

Nov 18, 2008 9:25 AM in response to dpeam

Hey dpeam,
Well sorry to hear of your cap problem.
Those numbers on recall are here:
http://www.happymacshop.com/Service/REPs.html
and if your machines are on that list as Michael says the program has run out. I had 2 clients' machines repaired under that program.
I would first do a Michael suggests since if you get the right person and push the educational aspect at them you could get your machines repaired. I told the service rep that the machine had blown up ( true to an extent) and he was extremely quick to help out.
I've got 12 Dell P-IVs in the scrap pile with the same capacitor problem. Dells program has also run out.
If you do repair them I'd like to hear about it. I see a lot of these.
Richard

Message was edited by: spudnuty

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Answer 3

dpeam Author

Level 1

15 points

Nov 18, 2008 6:44 PM in response to spudnuty

Richard,
Thank you for the quick reply. I took one of our machines to our Apple store ( I am a regular there and would be employed but for physical issues ) it had almost all the caps cooked. They said that they would fix it but it turned out that when they tried to replace the boards they found that the serial number didn't match that on the optical drive door and the RAM wouldn't fit. We bought these machines off ebay unaware of the bad cap issue. I now have spare parts. We have another one that unfortunately falls outside the serial number range but has only a few bad ones and still runs with patience.
So as I am handy with a soldering iron I will see if I can swap the bad caps for good.
I really like it when the public is made aware of things such as this aren't you?
I will let you know how I make out.

Dan, a Christian brother disguised as an Apple tech.

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Answer 4

Nov 18, 2008 8:17 PM in response to dpeam

I seldom say anything like this, as I have no way of assessing your statement regarding "…being handy with a soldering iron," but I cannot let it go by without this caution:

These logic boards are multilayer, and require not only sophisticated solder removal and soldering gear, but extensive experience to avoid damaging them. You would be well advised to instead entrust the repair of a board like this tho a service center with the tools, technicians and experience to get the job done properly. If you are interested in pursuing that option, send a message to the electronic mail address in my Public Profile to initiate a more extensive discussion about your specific situation.

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Answer 5

Nov 19, 2008 3:43 AM in response to Michael Lafferty

I didn't think Apple Service Centres did more than replace components? (As indeed, with most "computer repair" places...)

There are places that do mail order logic board repair work... specifically for bad caps too... tho I don't have any of the sites on hand... looked into them back in 2006 when this all started...

Dan - yes, Apple in my opinion should have been more open about this. Their repair program never actually mentioned capacitors, nor "freezing".

Sadly, if Apple will not come to the party, there really is little other option than turning them into fishbowls... You can use "Safe Mode" to get a bit more use out of them... but only maybe a few months...

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Answer 6

spudnuty

Level 5

7,128 points

Nov 19, 2008 6:38 AM in response to Michael Lafferty

Michael,
Since you seem quite knowledgeable I have a couple of questions for you regarding the capacitor problem in these eMacs. Especially since the extended warranty program is now history:
1) Would the bad capacitors read bad on an ESR meter? ( A client of mine had one blow up so that was pretty obvious as were the leaky ones on the Dell boards)
2) Instead of removing the capacitors from the board what do you think the possibility of "deconstructing" them in situ would be?
Would there be toxicity concerns? Corrosion? In some cases this would be after the fact anyway since they would have leaked out (or exploded). In the case of the Dells I didn't see any corrosion of the mother boards and they had leaked quite a bit.
3)Once the pins were exposed you could just solder directly to them and not have to be concerned with multilayer removal. Would that work?
Thanks for your expertise.
Richard

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Answer 7

Nov 19, 2008 6:47 AM in response to cosmichobo

You're right, they don't in most cases. But, there are third-party alternatives.

Fishbowls? Seriously? A replacement logic board with ALL potentially affected capacitors replaced and a one-year warranty should cost no more than US $ 129.00, which—divided across the cost of all of the machines purchased by an organization through someone like eBay—seems like a reasonable cost to me. Amortized across the future years of service multiplied by the number of machines and again by the student population able to use them, it's a very inexpensive per student cost to assume.

This is one of the 'hidden' costs of the many opportunities of purchasing used equipment through such sources. And, it's fair to note that Apple more than met it's obligation to repair such units under the provisions of its voluntarily imposed repair extension program over a three year period. Maybe they should have offered it over four, or five or more years from the point of view of some, but realistically, where do you establish the cutoff of such a voluntary program?

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Answer 8

Nov 19, 2008 7:23 AM in response to spudnuty

While appreciate the effort to find alternatives, I wince at what you've suggested.

We've found electrolytic fluid generally to be highly corrosive, in some cases. The best example of an analogous situation was the profound failure of small surface mount capacitors on Macintosh LC, LC II, LC III and Macintosh IIsi machines, which severely damaged those printed circuit boards in many cases. Caught early, the problem could be corrected by removing and replacing all of those capacitors which potentially could be affected. Apple never publicly acknowledged this specific issue with these machines, and it affected thousands of them.

Capacitors are sealed units, per se, and try to leave the leads in place while replacing the canister and contents strikes me as a really bad idea. Many such components are polarized, and placing them in reverse in a circuit can result in almost instantaneous flowering or explosion, depending upon the underlying circuit design.

With the right gear and experience, the rehabilitation of these boards—done properly with all potentially affected components replaced—is labor intensive, but not difficult. It's just not a job for anyone without the 'right stuff' to pull it off.

Coupled with a one-year warranty, it seems to me that the only reasonable answer is to opt for such service from a reputable organization. Of course, I have a limited, vested in interest in such an outcome, as our organization provides such an option, usually in volume and focused primarily on educational customers. Anyone can take advantage of it, we just don't 'push' to service to individual users.

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Answer 9

dpeam Author

Level 1

15 points

Nov 19, 2008 12:56 PM in response to spudnuty

Just clipping the leads would indeed work as that goes to same place on the board just make sure of the leads from the cap. One way to know if the cap has gone bad is swelling at any point on the body. Good ones will be uniform sides, top and bottom. As for an ESR meter depends on the state when tested. The caps will work and return the necessary capacitance even though they are deformed, heat plays a part also, can't hurt to try.
Deconstructing I assume to mean taking them apart? If so then don't just clip them off and replace with the same value.

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Answer 10

dpeam Author

Level 1

15 points

Nov 19, 2008 12:59 PM in response to dpeam

Not too good on grammar that last post, sorry.
I would be interested in logic boards for these machines for 130.00. That is a reasonable price considering what replacing them would be.

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Answer 11

dpeam Author

Level 1

15 points

Nov 19, 2008 1:06 PM in response to dpeam

Michael,
I have probably 3 eMacs with this problem. If you could point me to such boards that would be great.
Swapping them out isn't an issue just keeping track of where all the screws go. I think I would almost rather work on an iBook G3 or 4. They don't weigh so much.
We have started to switch to iMac flat panel for the smaller footprint and reliability. They are also easier to work on.

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Answer 12

spudnuty

Level 5

7,128 points

Nov 19, 2008 8:30 PM in response to Michael Lafferty

Michael,

Capacitors are sealed units, per se, and try to leave the leads in place while replacing the canister and contents strikes me as a really bad idea.

Whoa! Yup that would be a really bad idea as well as being impossible.

Many such components are polarized, and placing them in reverse in a circuit can result in almost instantaneous flowering or explosion, depending upon the underlying circuit design

Alto' fun to do! (I hear never did that myself however. Always thought it was stupid.)
Richard

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Answer 13

spudnuty

Level 5

7,128 points

Nov 19, 2008 8:56 PM in response to dpeam

Hey dpeam,

Swapping them out isn't an issue just keeping track of where all the screws go.

Actually not so difficult since you're a certified tech and have access to the Service Source Manuals. They're quite complete.

One way to know if the cap has gone bad is swelling at any point on the body.

Right the bad ones are easy to spot.

As for an ESR meter depends on the state when tested. The caps will work and return the necessary capacitance even though they are deformed

But if they're deformed you'd obviously replace them.

heat plays a part also, can't hurt to try.

Right in the old days we'd pull the 'lytics and bake them in the oven. (one we didn't cook in)

Just clipping the leads would indeed work as that goes to same place on the board just make sure of the leads from the cap...Deconstructing I assume to mean taking them apart? If so then don't just clip them off and replace with the same value.

Right that would circumvent the removal - resoldering problem. Difficult without the proper tools microwave or reflow ovens.

I think I would almost rather work on an iBook G3 or 4.

Right - almost - they do take up less room on the bench.

They don't weigh so much

The problem with the eMac is there's nothing to grab onto. You want to talk weight heft one of the precursors to the iMac - the All in One "Molar" there were a ton of these in schools also.

Were these the faster eMacs? Beyond 800 MHz? If you do swap those boards out I'd be interested in the dead boards.

Richard

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Answer 14

Nov 20, 2008 4:43 AM in response to Michael Lafferty

I dont know if things have changed, but as far as I know people are still being quoted $400-$600 to get the eMac logic board replaced - parts and labour.

You can buy a complete eMac for 1/2 that on the 2nd hand market...

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Answer 15

Nov 22, 2008 10:45 AM in response to dpeam

I sent an initial message with details to the electronic mail address in your Public Profile, and it has not bounced back. But, neither was it answered. Did you receive it?

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