Severe fault in MIDI sync

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Level 1

10 points

Severe fault in MIDI sync

In any Mainstage concert you can choose
"Get tempo from MIDI input"

Connecting to a MIDI CLOCK source this seamingly works. The tempo matches, and Tempo Delays gets the right delay time.

However: Sync is NOT just running in same tempo. To make any sense for step secuencers, arpeggiators, or even simple tremoloes the sync receiver has to acknowlegde bars and beats and pass this on to the plug-ins.

I don't know details about the .au or .vst protocols, but the difference is clear if try eg. Native Instruments FM8 running arpeggiated:
– first as standalone
– then within Logic
– then within MainStage

As standalone and within logic, the step sequencers runs in sync. The beats fall where they should.

Within Mainstage (receiving midi clock externally) the step sequencer runs in the right tempo but at an arbitrary start point making it useles.

Or try syncing Logics own Ultrabeat drum synth/pattern editor (not available standalone…) to an external drum machine. It flies around crazy.

Try making a simple tremolo fall on upbeats, in sync with midi clock. The tremolo just running in the right tempo just doesn't cut it!
Without the tremolo lfo being restarted by the host upon MIDI start/stop messages the tremolo will fall offbeat, onbeat in fact or anywhere in between. Mainstage apparantly ignores MIDI CLOCK start/stop messages!

Dear Apple (or emagic :-)) people, you should really, really look into this (major) issue!
The MIDI sync option is quite very prominent in the layout. Please please please make this work. Mainstage is elegant, but useles to me because of this.

MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Nov 30, 2008 7:21 PM

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Answer 1

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Nov 30, 2008 8:26 PM in response to thalund

thalund wrote:
In any Mainstage concert you can choose
"Get tempo from MIDI input"

Connecting to a MIDI CLOCK source this seamingly works. The tempo matches, and
Tempo Delays gets the right delay time.

However: Sync is NOT just running in same tempo.

I don't know details about the .au or .vst protocols, but the difference is clear if try eg. Native Instruments FM8 running arpeggiated:
– first as standalone
– then within Logic
– then within MainStage

As standalone and within logic, the step sequencers runs in sync. The beats fall where they should.

Not an answer... just one thing to add/make note of.

You're talking two different types of sync here. In Logic, the plugins are syncing to Logic's internal clock. (As of version 8, Logic does not sync to external MIDI clock)

In Mainstage you're syncing instruments to an external MIDI clock, what you're saying is the instruments just pickup clock, play in time/tempo but since there is no start command being used, sync does not line up, even though it's in tempo, correct?

What are you using for external MIDI clock? Does your external MIDI clock have a start/stop function?

pancenter-

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Answer 2

thalund Author

Level 1

10 points

Dec 1, 2008 4:13 AM in response to Pancenter

Hi Pancenter

I am not talking to different types of sync, this wasn't clear n my post sorry:

In the FM8 example I am talking:

1. FM8 running standalone – synced to external midi clock.

2. FM8 running in a sequencer host (like logic) - the host synced to external midi. Newer versions of Logic will not sync to Midi Clock only MTC (Midi Time Code), but that's besides the point.

3. FM8 running in Mainstage as host. The host synced to Midi Clock.

and btw also:

4. FM8 running in another live oriented host (Kore 2 by Native Instruments)

All of there examples run smoothly. If I restart the sync, the step sequencer og arpeggiator within the plug-in jump to first step and run from there.

Except Mainstage which seems to ignore the start stop, or at least doesn't pass it on to the plug-in.

Before whining (like I admittedly do) I have of course tried this with various midi clock sources: A drummachine, A different DAW, A synth capable of sending Midi Clock.
Yes they do send Midi Start / Stop messages
(Inspected with this small invalueble app: http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/ )

I have also tried it with four ⚠ different midi interfaces.

// Thalund

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Answer 3

thalund Author

Level 1

10 points

Dec 1, 2008 4:24 AM in response to thalund

And sorry about all the typos, hope the meaning is clear…

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Answer 4

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Dec 1, 2008 11:51 AM in response to thalund

thalund wrote:
Hi Pancenter

I am not talking to different types of sync, this wasn't clear n my post sorry:

Ok, understood now. You didn't say you were using Logic 7 on the test, and because you mentioned Mainstage I figured you were using Logic 8, which does not sync to external MIDI clock, MTC/SMPTE yes, but that a different beast as it's time based only, no tempo information.

In the FM8 example I am talking:

1. FM8 running standalone – synced to external midi clock.

2. FM8 running in a sequencer host (like logic) - the host synced to external midi. Newer versions of Logic will not sync to Midi Clock only MTC (Midi Time Code), but that's besides the point.

3. FM8 running in Mainstage as host. The host synced to Midi Clock.

and btw also:

4. FM8 running in another live oriented host (Kore 2 by Native Instruments)

All of there examples run smoothly. If I restart the sync, the step sequencer og arpeggiator within the plug-in jump to first step and run from there.

Except Mainstage which seems to ignore the start stop, or at least doesn't pass it on to the plug-in.

Got it, definitely one to pass on to Apple.
I don't use Mainstage as Logic is in studio only, so no help there, at least this bumps the post, maybe someone's dealt with it. Start sending feedback to Apple.

pancenter-

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Answer 5

thalund Author

Level 1

10 points

Dec 1, 2008 1:37 PM in response to Pancenter

The most plain comparison is perhaps between Kore 2 and Mainstage running the same plugins, synced up to good old midi clock.

It's so frustrating when very complex technology wont let you do a really simple thing

+Hook op a 1985 drummachine to a 303, they'll sync like a charm+ 🙂

I'm kinda new here, I thought this was the right spot if you wanted to raise an issue with apple (and among other users) ... I'll look for an email address.

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Answer 6

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Dec 1, 2008 2:24 PM in response to thalund

thalund wrote:

I'm kinda new here, I thought this was the right spot if you wanted to raise an issue with apple (and among other users) ... I'll look for an email address.

There's a Feedback link built into Logic.

pancenter-

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Answer 7

thalund Author

Level 1

10 points

Dec 11, 2008 10:54 AM in response to Pancenter

I have posted feedback via the application and a designer from the Logic team actually responded within hours. Kudos for that!

The reply says that Mainstage does not support external sync, only internally between plug-ins.

The feature only says "Get tempo", not sync. Midi clock was abandonded in Logic because it never worked (I guess 'cause it's a crude sync-source, 24 ticks per bar, all ticks are alike)

I'm satisfied with the answer, though still dissapointed:

The way I reckon Logic Pro is an advanced digital studio, also able to do simple things.

MainStage is a highly flexible digital synthesizer, and should be able to do simple things as well.

Syncing to MIDI clock is a simple thing, EVERY digital synth I have in my studio will do this, spanning form my 1983 Korg Poly-800 to a very recent clavia Nord Lead.
You may call it unstable, but if I hook up MIDI between an 80s drum machine and an 80s synth with arpeggiator - press play and leave it overnight I still hear perfect sync when drinking my morning coffee…

The most stunning argument is of course that an obvious competitor to Mainstage, Kore 2 from Native Instruments will sync like a charm to external MIDI clock

So why don't I just use Kore 2 then?

Mainly because MainStage's patch handling is so much more elegant than Kore, in which I'm confused to death before setting up 5 songs with different signal/instrument configurations.

Secondly because I use the Logic sampler (exs24) and synths a lot. I find the ES2 absolutely terrific, and I'd have to resample and thereby compromise my ES2 patches if I'm forced to move to another live host.

Summing this up:
Thumbs up to Apple for answering my inquiery.
Hands in the air if they'll decide to meet simple demands (and the competition) and make midi sync work.

thalund // Denmark

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Answer 8

drobot

Level 1

8 points

Dec 21, 2008 8:50 PM in response to thalund

There is a button parameter that can help sync with other apps. Go to the concert setting, find a button that you want to program for the "play/stop" function, this is located in the actions folder. hopefully this will help. Every time I work with logic and mainstage I fix a problem and then another comes up. good luck

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