Large HDD in SE/30

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Large HDD in SE/30

Hi,
I have (a couple actually) of SE/30s. I want to upgrade the HDD in the better one with a Seagate Barracuda ST318417N SCSI device (18GB). This is SCSI (I think Ultra-SCSI) and has the same 50-pin connector that the old Apple Quantum 80MB has.

My problem is this: I can't get the SE/30 to acknowledge the presence of the (brand) new HDD. As far as I can see, it's on ID:0 as was the old Quantum. There's nothing else connected to the computer. I've booted off a System7.5 floppy and tried Apple HD SC (patched) which doesn't find the drive. The A/UX version hangs. I've tried Lido 7, which scans through the SCSI banks... (System 7.5 on Bank 7) when it gets to bank 0 the wristwatch symbol stays on, and nothing happens (for hours). Then I get fed up.

The posts I read on the net suggest I should be able to use "any" SCSI HDD. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your help with this!

1989 SE/30, System 7.5.3, Asante Ethernet, Mac OS 8.6 or Earlier

Posted on Jan 17, 2009 6:46 AM

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Answer 1

Jan Hedlund

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24,567 points

Jan 17, 2009 7:47 AM in response to fletch106

Hi,

I assume that everything is in accordance with this installation guide.

You may also want to check whether Drive Setup 1.7.3 can detect the drive.

It is possible to modify a Network Access Disk 7.5 ( here) to hold Drive Setup 1.7.3: Create the Network Access floppy via Disk Copy 4.2 (the Make A Copy button). Move the System suitcase out of the Network Access System Folder; place the file on the main floppy level. Move the entire remaining System Folder to the Trash. Empty the Trash. At this point, the floppy only contains the System suitcase. Copy the Drive Setup program file to the floppy. Rename the Drive Setup program (call it Finder).

Any difference if you try starting the SE/30 from a floppy while holding down the four keys Command(Apple) + Option(Alt) + Shift + Delete(Backspace)?

Mt. Everything may be of interest for SCSI bus inspection and tests.

Once the drive has been recognised and is ready to be (re)formatted and partitioned, please note the maximum volume size.

Jan

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Answer 2

fletch106 Author

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Jan 17, 2009 9:08 AM in response to Jan Hedlund

Many thanks for that!

Out of curiosity (and as the SE/30 I was trying to upgrade has the CD drivers and my AppleCD attached) I thought I'd attach the new HDD to the other SE/30 and use the firs one to make up boot and software discs (using the CD drive) as you'd suggested above.

However the second SE/30 has recognised the new HDD immediately! I can't explain it! Everything I did on the first one, I've repeated on the second with no problems at all... the disc is currently formatting!

Any ideas why this may be? Is my first SE/30 about to fail?

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Answer 3

Jan Hedlund

Level 7

24,567 points

Jan 17, 2009 9:34 AM in response to fletch106

Any ideas why this may be?

Difficult to say. Appears to be some kind of connection problem. Loose connector? Bad solder joint?

Jan

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Answer 4

fletch106 Author

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Jan 17, 2009 10:18 AM in response to Jan Hedlund

Mmmm well I'm using the Quantum 80MB on the same cable/motherboard etc and it works OK. Not sure why the HDD should not be recognised when I put it on the end of the same cable... ah well!

BTW, the format went on for a period then FAILED! I'm going to try different utilities to see if I get any joy!

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Answer 5

Jan Hedlund

Level 7

24,567 points

Jan 17, 2009 10:30 AM in response to fletch106

Mmmm well I'm using the Quantum 80MB on the same cable/motherboard etc and it works OK. Not sure why the HDD should not be recognised when I put it on the end of the same cable... ah well!

I was thinking along the lines that something had happened while you installed the new drive. However, if a re-installed old drive is working OK, the connectors et cetera appear to be in order.

I'm going to try different utilities to see if I get any joy!

Yes, try a bootable disk with Drive Setup 1.7.3 to begin with. Also, try the key combination above. Possibly no change, but you never know. Good luck!

Jan

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Answer 6

fletch106 Author

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Jan 17, 2009 10:53 AM in response to Jan Hedlund

Hi,

Made a drivesetup boot disc. The computer can see the drive, and lets me go into partitioning options, but even if I make the first partition less than 2000MB and leave the rest unallocated, the computer starts to initialise, then reports "Initialisation Failed". I've tried a few different partitioning options with no joy!

😟

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Answer 7

Jan 17, 2009 11:10 AM in response to fletch106

"Initialization Failed!" can occur with more than 10 bad blocks detected. Scrubbing out those bad blocks to try again is a bit more complicated that on IDE/ATA drives.

1) Initialize with "Write Zeroes" or "Zero all Data" option (they are the same, which you are offered depends on the software version). This can take several hours for a large drive.

2) Run the "Test Disk" function. This is required to force a SCSI drive to replace bad blocks with spares. The substitution is made in the drive's firmware -- it is a near-permanent substitution that is managed by the drive firmware from then on. It also takes quite a while.

"Initialization failed" or "Bad Blocks encountered during test" may appear. They may indicate as few as 10 Bad Blocks. Current thinking is that those numbers are tolerable on larger drives, and that it makes sense to run the process again in an attempt to eliminate additional Bad Blocks. Beyond that, you are somewhat on your own as to whether you will run the tests again to remove more Bad Blocks, or decide not to trust your precious data to such a drive.

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Answer 8

fletch106 Author

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Jan 17, 2009 11:32 AM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Hi,

The computer does not seem to start the format process... when I use DriveSetup I get a list of drives:

VOLUME NAME(S) TYPE BUS ID LUN
<not initialized> SCSI 0 0 0

Then I highlight the drive. If I try to initialize it, it says it's too big for HFS and to use partitioning options. So I go into 'customize', make the first partition just under 2000MB, leave the rest unallocated and click OK.

Then the machine says 'partitioning drive' with the black & white wheel for about 5 seconds, followed by "Initialization failed". The drive is brand new, so I don't think it'll have bad block problems, and it doesn't seem as if the machine gets as far as actually formatting...

😟

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Answer 9

Jan 17, 2009 1:08 PM in response to fletch106

Do you have the termination straps on the drive set to Terminate the SCSI Bus?
These will be distinct from Termination Power straps.

If you do not have a strapping guide, folks here can help you find one online.

Maybe it is just too different from the drives that shipped when that Mac was new.

You should try asking Mount Everything (link was provided by Jan above) to help in diagnosis.

Message was edited by: Grant Bennet-Alder

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Answer 10

fletch106 Author

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Jan 17, 2009 4:09 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Still getting nowhere with this drive 😟

I'm fitting it internally, on the end of the same SCSI cable that the old Apple/Quantum drive was on, on ID:0 with the Mac on ID:7.

There doesn't appear to be terminators on it - there's a 50-pin connector for data, the power cable, then two other connectors: a row of 8 jumpers labelled SCSI SEL/LVD connector (reserved, reserved, reserved, parity disable, write protect, motor start enable, delay motor start, force single ended --- all open), and another on the back of the unit labelled HDA (J6 - a set of 3 pairs of jumpers with a block that covers them all, and another 6 jumpers: the activity LED, one labelled RES, and 4 address jumpers - all are open).

Tried Mount Everything - it detects the device on ID:0, but when you ask for information, it just says "no partition data found". It will successfully spin up and power down with the start/stop device button.

Any ideas, anyone? Has anybody put a 50-pin Ultra SCSI-2 drive in an SE/30 successfully?

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Answer 11

Jan 17, 2009 4:45 PM in response to fletch106

If you read in the guide Jan provided a link to above, the N model drives feature a J2 jumper block on the side of the circuit card. The TE jumper located there will be required (and probably TP2, possibly TP1 to use any external devices with it) to provide proper Termination if you are not applying an external Terminator.

fig 19 on page 41 for jumper locations
descriptions of the jumper functions are in section 8.1.2, on page 43

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Answer 12

Jan Hedlund

Level 7

24,567 points

Jan 17, 2009 5:00 PM in response to fletch106

There doesn't appear to be terminators on it

Would the J2 pins 15 and 16 mentioned under 2. in the installation guide (link in my first message) be relevant here?

Jan

EDIT: Just noticed that Grant had made the same observation about J2.

BTW, the entire product manual can be found here.

Message was edited by: Jan Hedlund

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Answer 13

fletch106 Author

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Jan 17, 2009 5:24 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

Thank you for that advice in the last 2 posts. I had seen the jumpers, but having no experience with SCSI, had no idea how they need to be set. Given that I have an external SCSI Apple CD (which runs at ID:1) with a terminator installed on it, do I need to set the internal hard disc terminator to ON or OFF?

Also, at the risk of sounding stupid, I don't follow what significance "supplying power to SCSI bus IO cable" has. Default for the drive is TP1 off and TP2 on, and on the drive itself, those pins are labelled "RESERVED" (both TP1 and TP2). Will factory default do the job... i.e is the SE/30 a "single ended I/O setup"?

Thanks for your patience chaps...

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Answer 14

Jan 17, 2009 5:49 PM in response to fletch106

"Given that I have an external SCSI Apple CD (which runs at ID:1) with a terminator installed on it, do I need to set the internal hard disc terminator to ON or OFF?"

The rule is "Both ends of the SCSI cable \[and no devices in between] must be terminated". The SE/30 is old enough that the SCSI controller is not providing termination, so the strap settings on the drive are used to provide the termination. Yes, you need to Terminate the Drive.

"supplying power to SCSI bus IO cable" ??. Default for the drive is TP1 off and TP2 on, and on the drive itself, those pins are labelled "RESERVED" (both TP1 and TP2). "

External Termination only works when one or several devices on the Bus supply 5 Volt power to the pin on the cable reserved for it. If you ever want to use any external devices, it would be a good idea to put a jumper on TP1. This will put the Drive's 5 Volt power through a diode onto the proper pin on the cable so that when the external terminator is applied, it can operate.

Those pins are labeled "Reserved" because on other model of that drive, they should not be used. The manual has been updated -- the silkscreen on the circuit card has its original errors.

Message was edited by: Grant Bennet-Alder

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Answer 15

Jan 17, 2009 5:48 PM in response to fletch106

is the SE/30 a "single ended I/O setup"?

Single Ended in this context is a reference to drive signals that use only one wire for each signal. The SE is definitely Single Ended, but that is not a reference to its Termination.

Low Voltage Differential (LVD) signaling (available on the other models of this drive) uses a + and - wire for each, and the signal is the difference between them. LVD signaling is much more noise-immune, and so is ideal for faster transfer times.

Unfortunately, LVD Terminators are so large that drive manufacturers declined to provide them on their drives at all. (In most cases, you need an additional connector or a cable with the Terminator captured at the end.) That is why the manual for that drive family boldly states in the introduction that these drives do not have on-board Terminators, and an external Terminator must be used -- only to contradict it in the sections, diagrams, and strapping guides that pertain to the N model.

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