DV video quality

kaciecan wrote:
So I am using the solution proposed by Serhij since I do have FCP. The one thing that I confuses me it the time it takes to output to the file I bring into iDVD. I have a sequence with the DV file, I export to Quicktime movie and choose DC NTSC. I deselect "recompress all frames" as well as "make movie self contained". I do have a few chapter markers. With this setting I would have thought the time to create the file would be less than a minute. It takes about 20 minutes. It's not hardware - I have a rockin new iMac. Am I missing something? What's it doing if I'm maintaining the original files?

"make movie self contained" - I am keeping this checked. It allows me to have single file to send it back to tape in the same time as to encode it by iDVD or Compressor without funning FCP in background. May be here is the point? Check it out.

The reason motion is so much smoother is that with FCE it is computed at 1/60th second intervals rather than 1/30th second. As I've mentioned several times -- while using 1080p30 removes all FX limitations with HD -- 30fps is not ideal for motion.

Apple's problem is there is only one 1080p60 camcorder and it's not yet shipping! And, most Macs are not powerful enough to handle it. And, no way to USE 1080p60 movies!

So the ideal for iM is 720p60. However, there are very few camcorders that shoot it.

Apple is clearly assuming most folks are in the situation here they can't see anything better than 960x540 and so no matter their equipment they will give-up and will import at LARGE rather than FULL.

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Now returning to DV -- this is the same assumption Apple made when they dropped a field from DV in iM 08. They assume you can't see the quality loss.

With iM09, dropping a field solves all FX problems so to use the new FX, you must have progressive video. You either have to let iM do it or you have to use MPEGstreamclip to do it.

Or, you've got to use iM with FCE. The latter solves the quality problem, but eliminates the INTEGRATION advantages offered by iLife.

Steve Mullen wrote:
With iM09, dropping a field solves all FX problems so to use the new FX, you must have progressive video. You either have to let iM do it or you have to use MPEGstreamclip to do it.

Ok, I think it is starting to make sense to me now... 🙂
- I can do my importing with either iMovieHD or iMovie09 (preferably with iMovieHD, but the key message is importing with iMovie09 doesn't reduce the quality).
- I then need to use MPEG StreamClip to convert the .dv files to AIC progressive.
- The files generated by MPEG StreamClip can then be imported into iMovie09 and edited and exported without quality loss. (assuming export target is not a smaller file type)

*The only question I have now is, when converting the DV files with MPEG StreamClip is there any benefit to changing to changing the framesize to 720p (1280x720)? Or should I keep it the same as the source DV.* My thinking here is that my primary output is going to be to my Apple TV, which is set to 720p. I realize that the quality is not going to change, but just trying to figure out if there is any benefit to changing it...

Message was edited by: s.m.t.

Message was edited by: s.m.t.

There's no advantage to capture using iM06.

You can certainly try changing the frame size to 1280x720 or to 970x540 -- whichever your ATV supports at the frame-rate you use for viewing.

You may have find anamorphic DV changes better than 4:3. But, no harm in experimenting.

Steve Mullen wrote:
There's no advantage to capture using iM06.

You can certainly try changing the frame size to 1280x720 or to 970x540 -- whichever your ATV supports at the frame-rate you use for viewing.

You may have find anamorphic DV changes better than 4:3. But, no harm in experimenting.

I just figured it would be less complicated to import with iMovieHD that way you wouldn't have to pull the .dv files out of the events folder. But I will do a test clip now with 09 and see how it goes. I did a test clip by changing the frame size and that played fine on my ATV.

I have to say thanks to all here for the incredible amount of free time and expertise given here by the regular posters. Thank you all. Especially Steve who is being cajoled into giving out the best parts of his book!!
Anyway, I followed Steve's workflow recommendations in creating a small DVD from my DV camera. Then I did the exact same thing using iMovie HD. I then used Sony Vegas Platinum bundle on a Vista 64 box and did the whole thing there too. The Sony results came out the winner, slightly beating the imovieHD movie and clearly beating the imovie 09/streamclip attempt. I know this flies in the face of others' research. However with this in mind, and given Apple's recent treatment of DV support, would anyone recommend that PC owners buy the Sony program ( and get blu-ray support) over buying FCE and buying a WD mediabox and having to go through all these steps??
I'm not being critical here, just at a juncture point of whether to upgrade my PC and camera or get a mac pro.

May i ask what export parameters ie settings/workflow you used in imoviehd vs 9 vs sony

Sheryl,
In both of the samples I imported around 15 minutes of DV (720 x 480 ) from my old SD Widescreen Sony camcorder and followed the simplest path to DVD. I am out of town and therefore not near my mac until Sunday. However I will post details then. With Sony I simply imported the video,added crossfades and fade in & out and clicked on 'make movie' which exported the finished clip to the DVD authoring program. Noneof this third party nonsense.
I would like to add for the benefit of another poster that Sony vegas platinum will edit AVCHD natively. In fact with their ownership of the hardware and software in their cameras, good editing software to edit their codec and the ability to burn to their format (blu-ray) they seem to be the new Apple 😉

Now we need to go deeper into technology.

Vegas, FCP, FCE, and iMovie HD use what’s called “YUV” (or YCrCb) data that are the kind of digital data native to video equipment. YUV can represent the full video signal range from 0% (black) thru 100% (white) to 110+% (super white). Camcorders, particularly consumer DV record up to 110%, or higher.

When iMovie 08 made the move to real-time from rendered FX (used by iMovie 06 HD), Apple switched from CPU (Central Processor Unit) to GPU (Graphics Processor Unit) based FX. This in turn, required a switch from using YUV to RGB — a system is used for computer graphics.

Because the switch was made in the simplest possible way, maximum video brightness data were simply clipped at 100%. This causes bright highlights to be lost making the video look darker. It also causes color to fade.

So all the years everyone focused on the lost field, it seems no one ever measured the video signal. (There are pictures of these measures in my book.) Although I provide a partial solution, it can't really change the way iMovie treats video.

There is, however, an advantage to limiting peak signals to 100%. This is the legal limit for broadcast video. So if you used FCP, you would turn on the Legalizer were you sending your program to a broadcast station.


PS1: HD video is also clipped by iMovie 08 and 09. However, HD camcorders are able to record far more saturated colors—especially red—so the loss of brightness is not as noticeable.

PS2: There is no comparison between any Apple program and Vegas. Vegas has got to be one of the most frustrating programs around. Vegas started life as an audio editing program that was shoved into the video world. It edits native AVCHD only if you have a 2.66GHz QUAD CORE or faster PC. And, it's much more expensive than FCE.

In fact, you can buy an HDV camcorder for the price of Vegas. And, that really is the solution. DV simply can't offer the initial quality that HDV does. And, with the cost of Blu-ray players dropping, it really is time to replace ye' olde DVD player. Moreover, the WDMP player offers better than BD quality and only costs about $100.

PS3: note I did not scream "not a PC." I use both and I've got no problem with XP and will upgrade to Windows 7 from Vista. Were I to use a PC there is only one really really great editing program and that's EDIUS. You can download it and try it free. But, it's even more complicated than FCE. So why not use FCE together with iMovie 09 as many have suggested?

i think he is talking about the consumer package thats anywhere from 90-115 dollars. It kinda reminds me of the older imovie HD interface. Its nothing like imovie9--which is visually beautiful. So Steve, are you going to write that book on imovie9 and FCE:)

I also am interested in the parameters. I actually did an output test using imoviehd 6 exporting via quicktime using the same basic parameters i used with imovie9. I didn't see much difference, plus there is no events library in 6!

Thanks. Yes. The specs would be great. Whenever you can get them.

"I actually did an output test using imoviehd 6 exporting via quicktime using the same basic parameters i used with imovie9. I didn't see much difference, ..."

That's what I would expect. HDV is simply so much better than DV that you don't have to worry about which NLE you use.

PS: the baby Vegas is nice for adding 5.1-surround sound to a movie you edit in iMovie.

So then Steve,
you are basically saying that HDV is significantly better than DV. I can understand that. But let me simplify what I am asking. And if you or other kind souls who are willingto help out noobs like me would take into consideration that I am only an amateur hobby video- ist (!!) it would help me more.
1) using your book as a guide, is it now better to purchase a HDV camera for use with iMovie 09 ?
2) if not, and given your advice on minimizing generational loss, what is your choice of aquisition format ?
3) given the likelihood that Apple will soon abandon DV support, is purchasing a HDV camera then a more powerful Mac and FCE to follow the workflow you recommend a better choice than to upgrade my vista to quad core, buy a AVCHD camera and blu-ray burner and player and use baby Vegas ?

jigbobby
I will add a penny to discussion.

1) It looks like iM is better working with progressive (non interlaced) video so look for the camera which support it. There is announced in 2009 Sanyo camera which can shoot FullHD with 60p frame rate. Panasonic become oriented to Mac, it can be the reason to check it out. Canon and Sony makes god ones as well.
2) AFAIK DV and HDV formats natively works with interlaced video, so AVCHD I would prefer as better candidate to buy.
3) AVCHD require a lot of processor power. So you would want to buy faster computer in any way either Mac or PC. I will advise to buy the one you most familiar with, and software you know better as soon as it will fit your budjet.

I am personally thinking about this Canon
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HF-S100-Camcorder-Review-36389.htm

And friend of mine is having Sanyo, I like it so it is the option to check for me
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sanyo-Xacti-VPC-HD2000-Camcorder-Review-362 80.htm

HDV essentially replaced DV about 5 years ago. It's not just 3X more pixels it's far better quality.

Since progressive is what iM09 needs you have a couple of choices:

1) A Sony FX7 shooting at 1080p30.

2) A Canon HV30 or HV40 shooting at 1080p30. These camcorders can play your DV tapes. Of course, HDV uses FireWire and Apple may be in the process of killing it. But, who knows.

3) You should be able to find good prices on 2008 Canon AVCHD camcorders -- shooting at 1080p30.

Past Panasonics have been very poor.

JVC doesn't shoot progressive.

Since HDV and AVCHD are converted to AIC there is no need for a MacPro.

No need for a Blu-ray burner either. Use Toast and a BD player or even better a Western Digital Media Player. Discs made by Toast will not play on all BD players -- especially Sony. They do play on PS3s!