deinterlaced output is not deinterlaced

my source feed is 1080i, and when i export in 1280x720 the video still shows as interlaced footage... any ideas?

MacBook Pro 2.4Ghz, Mac OS X (10.5.6)

Posted on Jan 28, 2009 6:55 PM

Reply
300 replies

Feb 2, 2009 10:54 PM in response to Steve Mullen

I've spent a couple of hours now drawing lines in pixelmator and encoding them in various ways. I've gathered about 20 samples of various exports so far. I have stopped at this stage because a couple of things have become apparent. Not that I can explain them but I am able to describe them, hopefully someone can make more sense of them than me.

I should point out that I used a test sample produced in pixelmator which consisted of 40 lines of alternating black and white lines of 1 pixel each, under which I placed 16 lines starting with a white one, then 5 sets of red, blue and yellow lines (w/r/b/y/r/b/y... you get the idea). For the avoidance of doubt my sample was 1920 x 1080, but my lines were only in one corner. (I also threw in some black and white and some r/b/y vertical lines).

One observation that helped a little is that the viewer in im09 (could have been the same in im08) shows all the fields in a progressive clip, well let's say it doesn't simply show one field anyway, let's leave it for now that it showed all 56 lines of my sample.

My first observation was that QT didn't display my lines as expected, instead of a clear w/b/w/b pattern the display was blurred and the pattern was more like grey/wh/grey/bl/grey/wh/grey.... for both interlaced and progressive. The colours were just mixed up but different for progressive and interlaced. What's more they were the same for vertical lines.

However the really, really odd thing is that I can't take a screenshot of this, when I do the image is a clear(ish) w/b/w/b.

Add to this that if I then process the progressive video to interlaced and the interlaced to progressive at the same resolutions, it almost seems that QT is processing the source video as g/w/g/b/g/w... rather than w/b/w/b... and I end up with something like b/w/g/g/w/b.

It's as though the displayed video is blended even though the encoded video isn't, but when it's processed to another format it's the displayed (blended) video that gets converted and not the encoded video.

I also wonder about the deinterlacing not working in QT, I'm sort of thinking it might be working, the output is clearly progressive it just seems messed up. Could it be that it is deinterlacing the w/g/b/g/w.... effect and not the w/b/w/b..... but deinterlacing it as though it were deinterlacing the w/b/w/b....

Does that make sense

I've posted some of my results to this page...

http://web.mac.com/gartside1104/ATV/IM09.html

It's a bit messed up at this stage and I haven't fully checked everything I've put down. I got to the stage where there were so many variables to track that, it's become a bigger project than I thought. For now it just has some of my QT exports on it.

Moving on to im09, I've observed that the viewer in im09 (could have been the same in im08) shows all the fields in a progressive clip, well let's say it doesn't simply show one field anyway, let's leave it for now that it showed all 56 lines of my sample Which was quite helpful. Actually I've also found out this depends on what size your viewer is.

Because of this I have also noticed that my sample image in im09 displays differently again in im09. It's not w/b/w/b.... and it's not w/g/b/g/w..... it's distinctly 40 lines of varying shades of black, white and grey.

______________________________________________________________

Steve said
Winston -- does DEINTERLACE work in QT PRO?


I'm tempted to say yes because of what I'm thinking above however I suspect you are asking if exporting 1080i to 720p works in QT and the answer is whether it works or not the export is just the same as exporting 1080i to 720p in im09.

Finally, Just to confirm if I export from im09 at 1080i, and send that output through JES to deinterlace and reduce to 720p to get a perfect result, it doesn't matter at all whether my export from im09 is 1080i clean or 1080i classic. Indeed you can toggle the clean export back to classic in QT and the result is exactly the same as exporting to classic in the first place.

Feb 3, 2009 1:04 AM in response to Euisung Lee

Very informative. The QT export would - i think -- show combing if the camera hadn't moved so fast the legs are in two very different places.

The iM export looks like it is creating mice teeth by taking 2 lines of one field and then 2-lines of the other field. Zoomed-up all "lines" and "gaps" are equally tall. And, they alternate odd and even.

The QT lines seem 1/2 the height of the iM lines and also alternate.

The posting last week with mice teeth had 2-lines then 1-line. That made me think it was the result of scaling 1080 to 720 by discarding every 3rd line.

------

Because of the two legs and alternating lines -- you are correct that neither is de-interlacing.

I suspect that iM -- as you say -- is doing a very odd job of scaling. If I had to guess, I'd say if you use the UPPER 720 option you'll get uniform 2-2 scaling but if you use the LOWER you'll get 1-2 scaling. If I'm right -- that's why UPPER looks better.

How JES can deinterlace both LOWER and UPPER -- I have no idea. However, I'm worried that JES is simply sensing the pattern and choosing one "kind" of line. If it does, then each de-interlaced line would be 2-pixels high!

I'm going try this with 08 and my line patterns. It seemed to be working 6 months ago with 10.4.11 and 7.3.1.

http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC.aspx/videos/

Feb 3, 2009 2:11 AM in response to Steve Mullen

It seems to me that QT treats each field as separate thing and scales two 1920x540 images to 1280x360 and weave them back to 1280x720i frame, hence the clean 720i picture is acquired. It is good if you want to preserve the highest V res from 1080->720 conversion, but you are stuck with interlaced clip and there is no real 720i format that I know of.

iMovie09 doesn't want to deal with 'interlacing' at all and ignores it completely. It doesn't even use single field processing during editing.

User uploaded file
This is the 1080i footage within iMovie canvas, showing the effect of interlacing with bad resizing.

User uploaded file
And the same footage when viewed as full screen. iMovie doesn't discard the even field (or was it odd field?) at all anymore. (The reason for the bad interlacing pattern is because the video was not expanded to the full 1080 height)

User uploaded file
I did some comparison. The far right is the 720 export from 1080i original from iMovie, and I found out that the closest effect was seen when I resized 1080i image to 720 using 'bilinear' interpolation, very cheap way to resize an image.

So in conclusion, iMovie uses both fields and never discards a field anymore, but at the same time turns blind eye to 'interlacing' all together and treats the whole frame as single picture. When it needs to resize the frame to another size it just uses bilinear to shrink or expand the frame ending up completely ruining any interlaced source.

So if you captured your footage at 1080i, stick to it take it all the way to 1080i output. Interlaced video is never good for resizing anyway, and current iMovie09 makes it the worst possible case.

Feb 3, 2009 1:41 PM in response to spyd4r

I have to confess you guys lost me on your (very) detailed discussions.

If you don't mind indulging an "HD newbie" question or two...

I shoot with a Canon TX1 camera and I am wondering how iMovie 09 would work, as far as HD output, with the video my camera takes.

Here are the specs:

1280 x 720, 30 frames per second, "Motion JPEG" files, records to SDHC cards as ".avi" files

Would this be considered 720p? When people talk about 30p v. 60p, are they referring to frame rate as well as progressive v. interlaced?

Any suggestions on "web articles for HD dummies"? (that would be me)

Thanks!

Feb 3, 2009 3:15 PM in response to David Tozer

David Tozer wrote:
1280 x 720, 30 frames per second, "Motion JPEG" files, records to SDHC cards as ".avi" files
Would this be considered 720p?


Yes. iMovie won't do any conversion on them and use original AVIs in 720p res so you are fine.

When people talk about 30p v. 60p, are they referring to frame rate as well as progressive v. interlaced?


'P' stands for progressive, so both are. 60i is 'interlaced' but 60i is still considered 30 frames per second and iMovie's NTSC timeline is locked at 30 frames per second.

Feb 3, 2009 3:33 PM in response to David Tozer

I agree with Euisung Lee. If you have 720P source, you will be fine. I have a Kodak still camera which shoots 720P, and it looks fine. It is not a great camera, because the microphone is tinny, and the zoom is not smooth like a camcorder, but the picture is pretty good.

I ran an Export Using QuickTime at 1280x720 and it looks quite good.

[Here is a sample of the same footage at 960x540|http://gallery.me.com/htimjohnson/104700]

Feb 3, 2009 5:17 PM in response to David Tozer

David, I haven't seen any reports about imovie having problems importing any video, the problems occur when it comes to the export. Standard exports (ie 'share to movie') don't appear to have any issues, it's when it comes to exporting using the quicktime option in imovie that the problems begin.

It seems it isn't what you export to but rather how you export it where the problem lies and what's more it isnt' just a problem common to imovie, if you try the same export settings in QT pro itself it does the same thing, but oddly enough other applications which use the same export setting don't suffer the same problems. mpeg streamclip and FCE for example don't give the same results when exporting to a quicktime or mpeg4 format.

Feb 3, 2009 5:27 PM in response to Euisung Lee

Euisung -- I'm trying to tie what you are saying about iM09 into what I see in iM08. I just reran my odd/even line test.

input 1920x1080 of busy street in K.L. Motorcycle goes past very fast.

In the iM08 viewer, I see motion blur but no combing. But, from my lines photo I see All lines. To my eyes it is using one field of video and downscaling to window, but i scaling down all lines of photo.

Full-screen iM08 playback -- the same.

Export UPPER 1920x1080 from iM08 -- played in QT: the video has combing (not mice teeth) because both fields are woven together for computer playback. Photos have both odd and even lines. Turning on single-field makes half the lines disappear.

Playback in Avid Media Composer -- I can step thru field by field. I see no combing in any field. Each field has half the lines.

And BD from the 1920x1080 exports look fine.

To my eyes, iM08 is behaving exactly as it should with interlace video.

Now I'll recheck my 720p output.

PS: how did you include photos?

Feb 3, 2009 6:26 PM in response to Euisung Lee

So in conclusion, iMovie uses both fields and never discards a field anymore, but at the same time turns blind eye to 'interlacing' all together and treats the whole frame as single picture. When it needs to resize the frame to another size it just uses bilinear to shrink or expand the frame ending up completely ruining any interlaced sour


I'm not sure we can say that, it doesn't to me appear to be about imovie, but rather about using the quicktime export options. It doesn't appear to be about what type of compression is used or what resolution it is rescaled to but rather how you instruct QT.

Compression.
If you use the 'export to movie option, the codec used is AVC and the resulting export is free from problems, if you export using 'export to QT' and select 'movie to QT movie/h264', the codec used is AVC (albeit in a mov container), now we have a problem. Similarly if you use the 'export to QT/movie to tv option' which uses AVC - no problem, same thing when you use 'export to QT/movie to ipod' - no problem.

Similarly if you use another codec say, 'export to movie/movie to QT movie/mjpeg' then yes the problem is there.

Scaling.
It doesn't appear to be about scaling either. If you export to 540p using either 'export movie' or 'export using QT/movie to tv' your resulting movie is 540p without issue. However if you use 'export using QT/movie to QT movie/h264' and set your resolution to 540p then the problem is there.

Similarly if we choose not to scale at all and choose 'export using QT/movie to QT movie/h264 and set the res to 1080p (assuming your source is 1080i) then we still get the problem.

Interlacing/progressive.
Clearly the problem doesn't occur when the source is progressive, however the problem doesn't always occur when you use an interlaced source to provide a progressive output, it also appears that the problem doesn't occur if the output is interlaced.

Container type
There does seem some sort of connection here, so far the problem seems limited to mov and mp4 types and m4v seems to escape the problem. The exception here being when the compression used in the mov container results in an interlaced movie.

Application
So far the only connection I have found between instances of this type of behaviour is related to the container type. However this connection falls apart when different applications are used to go through to use the qt engine. So far I have only seen this behaviour when using imovie and QT pro itself. FCE doesn't have the problem when creating an AVC compression in a mov container and mpegstreamclip doesn't have the problem when making a quicktime movie and choosing the mp4 format.

Message was edited by: Winston Churchill

This thread has been closed by the system or the community team. You may vote for any posts you find helpful, or search the Community for additional answers.

deinterlaced output is not deinterlaced

Welcome to Apple Support Community
A forum where Apple customers help each other with their products. Get started with your Apple Account.