Outline list

Hey Mike I ran into this same problem (oddly, I was making a sermon outline too...)

I typically do this in Word, starting all my sermons in outline mode, highest level numbered, other levels just bulleted.

I could live with just bullets, but NEED the promote/demote to adopt the right bullet style for that level and not bring the old bullet.

Did you find a solution for this anywhere???

--T

T and Mike,

Begin reading at page 126 of the Pages 09 User Guide pdf. It's a bit tedious, but it works.

Jerry

Thanks Jerrold,

What I'm actually trying to do is a slight variation of that, something I do in Word quite easily: *It's actually combining the list styles with the outliner.*

What I'm trying to make is an outline (heading 1, heading 2...) each with a different bullet. That's easy enough to do by changing the paragraph styles.

The problem comes when you add the Outliner mode: When you promote, say, a heading 2 to a Heading 1, it keeps the old heading 2 bullet rather than adopting the new bullet defined for heading 1.

Outliner seems to work fine with one of the built-in structured lists, like Harvard for example--changes the bullet as you promote and demote--but as soon as I modify the template (i.e. change roman numerals to a bullet) it stops working properly.

I have this idea that it has to do with setting the default paragraph styles for the outliner headings AND the right indent level for the styles AND THEN redefining the list style.

I can reproduce the error, but can't solve this.

Any ideas?

I don't doubt that you are having that problem. All I can say is that it works here, with or without the Outline Mode, and I just followed the directions in the User Guide.

My only suggestion would be to follow the instructions carefully, maybe with a simple test document, and see if you don't have some small successes that you can build on.

Good luck,

Jerry

One of the problems seems to be with how the "indent level" works with the heading level in the outliner.

You can have an Level 5 heading ("Heading 5") and it can be "indent level" of 1. I think that presents a lot of confusion.

The other thing I noticed is that, if you follow the instructions in the manual as you suggest, but have some levels with bullets and some not, interesting interactions occur: You get the right bullets as long as you promote and demote to other headings with bullets, but if you promote to a level WITHOUT a bullet, that heading loses the ability to have a bullet altogether whether you promote or demote it.

All in all, I find the separation of "indent level" from "heading level" very confusing and having these strange effects.

I think the simplest would be to be able to define the style of the Heading (including bullet and numbering) and then just have the style change when it gets promoted or demoted.

I'm beginning to appreciate your problem. I was just exercising the list indentation and bullets from the Tool Bar Increase and Decrease controls, not from the Format Bar Promote and Demote controls in Outline Mode. Using the Promote and Demote controls, I remember when, long ago, I experimented with Outline Mode in Word, and gave up in frustration. My time lost when documents blew up on me far outweighed any productivity gain using Outline. Let us know if you make any progress on this. Perhaps I will change my opinion of Outline Mode.

Jerry

oh--you got it to work with the OUTLINER mode as well?

I mean, after you setup your bullets and styles, then promoted/demoted, all the bullets changed appropriately?

--T

No, I got into trouble, like you did, whenever I began using Promote and Demote in Outline mode after setting up list bullets.

When I claimed success, I actually was just manipulating the List conditions inside of the Outline Mode. You are correct that things get really messy when you use Promote and Demote. I think it's a bad idea to mix list bullets with Outline Mode. Just judging from our experience here...

Jerry

Hey Jerry,

Thanks a lot for looking at it. I did find some measured success:

1. All levels HAVE to have a bullet (but you can make some white)
2. Create styles with bullets for all the Headings 1-5
3. Make sure you set the right indent level for each heading
4. Highlight it all and make a new list style

It works if you stay in outliner mode, but if you try and apply a Heading style directly from the styles drawer it blows up. I've given up for now and posted a bug on Apple's support page for Pages.

--T

PS. On a happier note, is that a Newton in your profile picture? I coded some Newton Apps for my grad work in engineering. Even got apple to kick in for some training down in Cupertino. Ahh Newton...happy memories. I think I still have one in the basement somewhere...

I was big Palm fan when I started with the Apple apps. If that's a Newton, and it may be, it wasn't for that reason that I chose it.

Jerry

oops, sorry. Looks just like one of the earlier Newtons!

I've actually got this down to what I think I can post as a bug. Try this:

1. Open a harvard outline
2. Take it out of outline mode
3. Click on a level 3 heading
4. In the Styles Drawer, apply a heading 1 or heading 2 style...

Doesn't work. Can't even get it back to the original Heading 3 style. The problem (as I see it) is that they haven't made it so you can define the indent level as part of the style, the result is a "Heading 3" that's at Level 1.

I'll post this too.

Thanks for your help.