Level 1

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SCSI/IDE/Firewire hard drive?

Hi all,

I've got a Power Mac G4 Quicksilver 2002, which has, I think, an ATA/66 bus, Firewire 400 and 64bit PCI slots. How do I find out for sure that the controller can only support up to ATA/66?

I've got a Cheetah U320 SCSI hard drive lying around spare. The boot hard drive I have in the mac right now is an ATA/100 IDE drive connected to the on-board IDE bus. I have a firewire hard drive enclosure.

So, my question is, to speed up the computer in general, should I buy an U320 SCSI controller, which will be expensive, use the SCSI hard drive as boot drive; or put the ATA/100 IDE drive in the firewire enclosure and use that as boot drive; or just leave the current boot drive as it is now?

Thanks very much for your help in advance!

Regards - Piers

PowerMac G4 Quicksilver 2002, Mac OS X (10.5.6)

Posted on Feb 22, 2009 5:29 AM

33 replies

Jon Smith

Level 4

1,390 points

Feb 23, 2009 8:43 PM in response to Piers Kittel

Hello Piers (and Grant),

I run Tiger with a UL3S ATTO Express (U-160) and a Seagate ST318452LW Cheetah 15,000 rpm drive in a Digital Audio with a Quicksilver 933MHz cpu, and it boots and runs most happily. Will try a spare ST336607LW in a 2002 Quicksilver now that the question has been raised; can't imagine that the QS would be different from the DA, but you never know.

The UL3S ATTO Express card seems to be quite cheap when you find it on eBay - not so the cable, which is one of those special crinkly affairs and hard to find except at list. Don't remember exactly what I paid. Needless to say, the larger SCSI drives aren't the cheapest, either.

The ATTO Express UL3D remains rather dear - about $50 US - and I assume that's because it's more readily capable of a RAID array.

I've never compared my setup directly to ATA - or SATA, for that matter - but it seems quite perky, and I have no complaints.

I do remember hearing that SCSI configurations don't lend themselves to being Target Drives, but I've never tried.

Regards .... Jon

Feb 24, 2009 3:29 PM in response to Piers Kittel

Apparently like video cards , you can flash the onboard ROM chip on certain Adaptec PC SCSI cards with the Mac Rom file and make it work on a Mac.
I have never tried this however and of course YMMV.
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/tips/adaptecConvert.html
With the lower cost of secondhand SCSI cards on ebay now though , I'd be tempted to pick up one of the ATTO cards instead.

Stewie

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Feb 25, 2009 5:02 AM in response to stewiesno1

That website looks hugely complicated, what with all the soldering! It's more focused for the 2940 card, while I've got the 29160 card, but thanks for sharing it with me!

Anyway, just spotted a UL3S card on eBay for £25, so have picked it up. Hopefully I can figure out how to boot OS X from that... probably not!

Thanks to everyone for all your help, much appreciated!

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Mar 14, 2009 7:25 AM in response to Piers Kittel

Update. I decided "to **** with it" and got a UL3S SCSI controller off eBay for £25. Finally got around to putting it all together.

Pleased to see that it works perfectly well on 10.5 after all. I decided to run benchmarks using XBench between my ATA/66 hard drive and the U160 SCSI controller, and the results are ... interesting.

ATA hard drive:

Disk Test - 41.28
Sequential - 74.71
Uncached Write - 74.03 - 45.46 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 87.24 - 49.36 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 51.22 - 14.99 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 110.51 - 55.54 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random - 28.52
Uncached Write - 9.72 - 1.03 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 59.79 - 19.14 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 82.11 - 0.58 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 118.38 - 21.97 MB/sec [256K blocks]

U160 SCSI hard drive:

Disk Test - 56.17
Sequential - 80.40
Uncached Write - 125.78 - 77.23 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 52.96 - 29.96 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 75.70 - 22.15 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 102.99 - 51.76 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random - 43.16
Uncached Write - 15.48 - 1.64 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 83.34 - 26.68 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 116.80 - 0.83 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 133.54 - 24.78 MB/sec [256K blocks]

Interesting to see that in the sequential section, looking at the 4k block test, the SCSI drive walks over the ATA drive, but with the 256k block test, the ATA wins the day.

Although for the random test, the SCSI drive is a lot better. I think the random test is more realistic than the sequential test.

Now to figure out how to boot OS X from SCSI drives...

japamac

Level 7

24,400 points

Mar 14, 2009 7:56 AM in response to Piers Kittel

Very nice update.
Thanks for posting the results. 🙂
Looks like MacGuru's was right regarding the approximate 75MB/s performance.
Reading is nice and quick, which does help software run....

Interesting to see that in the sequential section, looking at the 4k block test, the SCSI drive walks over the ATA drive, but with the 256k block test, the ATA wins the day.

Even ATA drives have the same variance in performance, dependent on make. Some are better readers, others writers, some with large blocks, some with small blocks.

BTW, what are the two drive models and size that were tested?

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Mar 14, 2009 8:25 AM in response to japamac

Just installed OS X on the SCSI drive, was much easier than I thought - just insert disc, and there's the SCSI drive. Click on it, and click on install, and Bob's your uncle! After booting up, re-ran XBench - and the stats has dropped significantly surprisingly disappointingly:

Disk Test - 45.51
Sequential - 70.36
Uncached Write - 53.85 - 33.06 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 92.48 - 52.32 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 54.49 - 15.95 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 109.66 - 55.11 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random - 33.63
Uncached Write - 11.64 - 1.23 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 68.89 - 22.05 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 91.30 - 0.65 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 132.68 - 24.62 MB/sec [256K blocks]

Am going to install the ATTO drivers, see if it makes any difference, I hope it does!

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Mar 14, 2009 8:42 AM in response to japamac

Scratch that, I was testing the wrong drive. Shame on me for having the same drive names! All seems to be working OK now.

To answer your question, the ATA/66 drive (the drive is actually ATA/100, but the bus is ATA/66) is a Seagate ST3160815A, 160GB 7,200 rpm drive with 8MB cache, and the SCSI drive is a Seagate ST336706LW, U160 34GB 10,000 rpm drive with 4MB cache. I have a slightly newer Seagate SCSI drive which is U320, but is also 34GB and spins at 10,000 rpm. I don't know its cache size, however, but I'm guessing it's 8MB. For the life of me, I can't find it, but I doubt the cache size will make any real difference. However, I'll try the drive if I find it.

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Mar 14, 2009 8:18 PM in response to Piers Kittel

Interesting. Just been playing with OS X on my SCSI drive, and I decided to time the boot, with the SCSI drive, it boots up in 51 seconds, while with the IDE drive, it boots up in 38 seconds. Bit disappointed with this, so I decided to try the same test but with Photoshop CS3. Took 14 seconds to start on the SCSI drive, but 24 seconds to start on the IDE drive. Surprised with the speed difference, but it could partially be explained by the fact that there is more rubbish installed on the OS X install on the IDE drive, and OS X is "fresh" on the SCSI drive.

Mar 16, 2009 6:43 PM in response to Piers Kittel

Starting up seems to casue your Mac to search through every SCSI address at startup, which takes a bit longer.

Are you getting the distinctive Icon that says the UL3S card found its .kext (driver)?

Jon Smith

Level 4

1,390 points

Mar 16, 2009 10:20 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Grant,

WHAT distinctive icon that says the UL3S card found its drivers?

Jon

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Mar 17, 2009 10:39 AM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

No, because I haven't installed the drivers. OS X 10.5 seems to have the drivers built in. Like I said before, I just put the install disc in, and hey presto, there's the hard drive without needing to install anything. I'm not sure what benefit there is to install the drivers.

Mar 17, 2009 1:45 PM in response to Piers Kittel

SPEED.

Run a test to see if the speed is what you expect. I got a rude shock in 10.3 when the UL2D worked just fine, but tested at about 5 MB/sec, instead of the 40 MB/sec it was capable of.

Jon Smith

Level 4

1,390 points

Mar 17, 2009 5:27 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Hello Grant,

Oh, that distinctive icon! Sure do make a difference, don't it?

It also dramatically improves the video as well.

Thanks .... Jon

Piers Kittel Author

Level 1

0 points

Mar 18, 2009 8:54 AM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Very little real difference, and now I'm stuck with a butt ugly icon. Also, XBench actually rates my hard drive a little worse with the official drivers!

With OS X built in drivers:

Disk Test - 55.50
Sequential - 71.02
Uncached Write - 62.13 - 38.15 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 74.70 - 42.27 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 61.75 - 18.07 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 93.92 - 47.20 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random - 45.54
Uncached Write - 16.91 - 1.79 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 80.54 - 25.78 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 114.74 - 0.81 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 132.04 - 24.50 MB/sec [256K blocks]

With official drivers:

Disk Test - 54.00
Sequential - 75.53
Uncached Write - 117.95 - 72.42 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 49.18 - 27.83 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 74.01 - 21.66 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 94.00 - 47.25 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random - 42.03
Uncached Write - 15.08 - 1.60 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write - 80.40 - 25.74 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read - 114.93 - 0.81 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read - 129.03 - 23.94 MB/sec [256K blocks]

Only difference is that uncached write for 4k blocks has improved, but uncached write for 256k blocks has worsened. I hope the filesystem has small blocks!

japamac

Level 7

24,400 points

Mar 26, 2009 7:17 PM in response to Piers Kittel

Hi-

I thought I would post some numbers to allow comparison.
All tests are from my Sawtooth (ATA/66), with the SATA drives using a Seritek 1V2E+2 controller.

Drive Type Seagate 7200.7 160GB (ATA)
Disk Test 44.94
Sequential 61.87
Uncached Write 39.40 24.19 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 69.33 39.23 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 79.94 23.40 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 81.04 40.73 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 35.28
Uncached Write 12.72 1.35 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 66.59 21.32 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 90.37 0.64 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 115.22 21.38 MB/sec [256K blocks]

Drive Type WDC WD1500ADFD Raptor 150GB (SATA Internal)
Disk Test 81.61
Sequential 140.56
Uncached Write 120.11 73.74 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 155.00 87.70 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 134.64 39.40 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 159.94 80.38 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 57.50
Uncached Write 19.31 2.04 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 206.61 66.15 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 134.66 0.95 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 181.53 33.68 MB/sec [256K blocks]

Drive Type WDC WD6400AAKS Caviar Blue 640GB (SATA Internal)
Disk Test 88.07
Sequential 137.06
Uncached Write 125.68 77.17 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 135.18 76.48 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 117.82 34.48 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 187.19 94.08 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 64.88
Uncached Write 24.44 2.59 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 191.24 61.22 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 103.30 0.73 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 171.72 31.86 MB/sec [256K blocks]

Drive Type WDC WD6400AAKS Caviar Blue 640GB (eSATA, OWC housing)
Disk Test 87.10
Sequential 141.49
Uncached Write 123.39 75.76 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 148.64 84.10 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 117.59 34.41 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 202.67 101.86 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 62.91
Uncached Write 23.41 2.48 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 204.19 65.37 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 98.46 0.70 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 171.85 31.89 MB/sec [256K blocks]

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SCSI/IDE/Firewire hard drive?