Level 1

53 points

Powerbook 5300c & booting from CF cards (PCMCIA & as IDE drive)

Hi all,

I'm trying to "upgrade" my vintage PB 5300c and replace the internal noisy slow HD to using CF cards via the IDE-CF card adaptors.

in theory, this should be pretty easy.. format the CF card as HFS, install OS (trying 8.1), connect everything and reboot.

however, I'm having severe difficulties. First, I couldn't get the 5300c to boot off the CF card via the PC card slot at all (ejects the CF card not finding any OS on it). This, I managed to figure out that using HFS+ was a bad idea. So I reformatted the CF card to HFS (standard), and then re-installed 8.1. At least this time it would recognize a system folder and try to boot.. but soon after the MacOS splash screen it crashes stating "bus error". I managed to get it to reboot once while holding the shift key, but only that once.

I've tried installing the CF card to the IDE drive chain, and managed to get it boot in OS8.6, but it's kinda slow.. so I would really like to boot into 8.1...

But either way, I need to make sure I can boot this thing via pc slot before I put it back into the IDE drive bay. so under HFS, I have tried installing a fresh copy of OS8.6, 7.6, 8.1 to no avail. it still boots fine via the internal hard drive, or using SCSI external. I haven't tried putting the CF card back onto IDE bay yet.

What is wrong? is there something wrong with the motherboard/logic board that is preventing it from booting from CF? I'm starting to think there is something more sinister than just a plain-vanilla "bad OS installation".

All installation is done on the 5300c, either through an install disk image on the CF, or the internal HD, or "drag-drop" a known working OS onto the CF.

I have at my disposal, my trusty Al-PB G4 running Leopard (kinda useless other than downloading stuff from the net and loading on to CF to get it on the PBs), PB G3 Lombarde (somehwat useful, although it won't work under 8.1, so trying the installation on that machine is useless). I also do have another 5300c with a bad power connector (the solder ripped off) so i do have some spare parts to swap if needed...

any ideas what to do? I guess I can try to install OS7.5 (painful...) instead of 7.6 and see if that works... I'm totally baffled, and I'm starting to get a bit discouraged here...

Powerbook G4 Al 15" 1.5Ghz, Mac OS X (10.4.11), MacPro 2.8Ghz 8-core, Mac OS X (10.5.2)

Posted on Jun 21, 2009 9:24 PM

48 replies

A H1 Author

Level 1

53 points

Jun 23, 2009 2:35 PM in response to Niteshooter

Very interesting indeed. I installed the old main battery in. will let it sit a few hours before trying few things.

when you installed OS8.5, did you format it as HFS or HFS+?

for 8.1, if I format the CF as HFS+ it wouldn't recognize the system folder at all (reject upon startup in the PC slot). it would recognize as system folder but get bus error with HFS.

on speed, I've been told using the CF card in the IDE slot via adapter is much faster than booting off PC slot due to data bus difference (16bit vs 32 bit or somesuch)

Jun 23, 2009 3:31 PM in response to A H1

Hmm good question, I used the disk tools that is on the installer CD which does not give you that option. Are you using an OSX tool? If so that might be part of the problem.

I noticed that when I tried to move a file from my G5 running OSX Tiger onto a floppy formatted on the 5300 once I put the file on the floppy the 5300 failed to see the file. Shows the missing space but no file.

It looks like size and speed might matter. I found an old Dane-electric 1GB CF card again without any speed rating. Loaded 8.5 on it and it boots the 5300 just fine.

Looks like those adaptors are pretty cheap, under $2 shipping incl from Hong Kong. Probably worth trying them since working ATA hard drives for these PowerBooks are starting to get hard to find.

Kevin

A H1 Author

Level 1

53 points

Jun 24, 2009 8:31 AM in response to Niteshooter

if you formatted the CF card under OSX, and worked, probably was formatted as HFS+. on earlier OS, I think they don't recognize HFS+...

I use the 5300c to format the CF card HFS. I've also done it under OS9 both as HFS and HFS+ (that's how I found out 5300c wouldn't even recognize a system folder under HFS+, but will if formatted as HFS). I tried formatting under OSX, and then when I first put it into OS9, it couldn't read it and had to re-initialize.

I bought a CF-IDE adaptor here: http://www.buyextras.com/syulide42hdd.html for $10 including shipping. you can get the same from newegg.com too for few dollars more...

so once I can get the 5300 to boot from CF card, I'll install in the HD... (I get same error message, regardless of where the CF card is installed, and taking the 5300c apart every time to fix things takes too much time... although not as hard as taking apart an iBook of the Al-PB.. ugh)

still digging for OS8.5... and older CF cards (most are 16Mb and similar, so too small)

Jun 24, 2009 1:24 PM in response to A H1

No. I use the disk tools that is on the installation CD for OS 8.5.

I use the default setting which is Macintosh Standard.

I bet using OSX is one of your problems!

The other is the size of the card, I found an old 2GB slow CF card. Loaded 8.5 which is known good and guess what Bus Error so it looks like the maximum is 1GB.

I just ordered 6 CF to IDE adaptors from here, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=2504 41428368 total cost shipping included was just under $10 cdn.

Ok did some more testing, looks like OS 9.1 works as well. I formatted a known good 512MB Kingston CF card just now and just dragged and dropped the entire known good OS and applications
from the 5300c I dug out.

Major discovery with OS9 it needs more than 24MB of real memory to run in so that was why I couldn't install it on either 5300cs. My 5300c has 64mb.

Also noticed for the first time that running from the CF card vs the internal 1.1GB hard drive feels slower.

Discovery #2, I bought a cheap 1GB CF card today. Must be a type II as the card has slightly different shaped groves on the sides and therefore will not fit the card readers I own. Should be fine with the CF to ATA adaptor.

Should also be interesting to see if the ATA adaptor has the same size limitations that I am finding with the PCMCIA adaptor.

Kevin

Jun 24, 2009 3:45 PM in response to A H1

I have been able to run 8.1 on a 5300c of a 2G CF card in the PCMCIA slot reliably for over a year, until I swapped it for a 1400cs. The installation process may be a little odd, but it worked. I first installed the OS on the card using a Wallstreet, then inserted the adapter with drive into the 5300. I removed the RAM card, and started up holding down shift (extensions off). Once I booted up I installed SpeedDoubler 8 (can be found online) and RamDoubler (found at same place) turned off Virtual Memory, and I then shut down the 5300, reinstalled the RAM card, and booted up normal. I don't know why , but I didn't have to do any of this for 8.6 or 9, just 8.1 If I tried to boot with the RAM in before installing the Doublers, I would get the same "bus error" problem. If I didn't turn off extensions the first time, same message. The 5300 was also overclocked to 117 mhz, sothat may be part of the problems

Jun 24, 2009 7:33 PM in response to Niteshooter

Can't remember off the top of my head, as I said I swapped it so it's no longer around. I do remember that it was a Sandisk, I bought it at Staples. When I picked it out I remember it was a mid level model, not the fastest, but not the slowest either. I was able to use 8.1 on multiple cards, I just mentioned the 2 gig one since people were saying there may be a size restriction.

Jan Hedlund

Level 7

24,235 points

Jun 24, 2009 11:09 PM in response to Niteshooter

I think the main problem he is having is that his cards are either too large eg 4GB or too fast eg 80x.

Hi Kevin,

Yes, that is quite possible. Unfortunately, at this moment I do not have access to larger than 1 GB (nor faster) CF cards. The 16 MB card test with System 7.5.3 mentioned earlier could be a way to at least determine whether A H1's PowerBook 5300c is capable of booting repeatedly without any other difficulties.

Regards,

Jan

Jun 25, 2009 6:54 AM in response to Jan Hedlund

Hi Jan and Ben, thanks for the information.

I've only tested the one 2GB card so can't say it's definitive at this point. Both of the old 1GB cards I've used do work though with OS 8.5 and 9.1.

I have the following cards,
-Kingston 512MB with orange/white label
-Kingston 512MB with plum label
-Dane-Elec 1GB with orange/blue label
-Intron 1GB in Super Talent package
-PQI 1GB white/blue label
-Intron 2GB in Super Talent package

I'm going to revisit the 2GB card and dig out an old Sandisk card as well.

One interesting discovery. I could not install OS 9 on the 5300's with only 24mb of memory. But if I install 9.1 from the 5300c with 64mb of memory and turn on VM to 48mb the card will boot and run fine on the 24mb PowerBooks.

Speed also seems pretty good even though it is running a lot of VM.

I stumbled upon a site the other day that was trying to set up some sort of database showing which cards worked and which didn't. Can't find it now but did find this on LEM.

http://lowendmac.com/reviews/07/flash.html

Looks like a lot of hit and miss with cards, should be interesting to see what works with the internal adaptor.

Kevin

Jun 25, 2009 9:38 AM in response to A H1

Well this is getting more interesting....

Picked up a cheap 4GB Kingston Elite Pro CF card just now. Formatted it with the 5300c and dumped the hard drive to the card. It works!

I also went back to the 2GB card and tried it on the 5300c and it also works!

What is interesting is the 2GB card does not work on either 5300cs. Have not tried the 4GB card yet.

Kevin

Jan Hedlund

Level 7

24,235 points

Jun 25, 2009 11:58 AM in response to Niteshooter

Hi again,

Today I bought a 4 GB card. Carried out the following test:

- Computer: PowerBook 5300c, 32 MB of RAM, Swedish System 7.5.5 on the hard disk.

- SanDisk CompactFlash PC Card Adapter

- SanDisk Ultra II CompactFlash 4 GB card (new, never used)

- Started PB 5300c with the Shift key depressed

- Inserted adapter (lower PC Card slot)

- After an extra attempt, message "...cannot read et cetera, do you want to initialise?". "Format : Macintosh 3.8 GB". Chose to proceed with this "high-level" formatting.

- Started the (Swedish) System 7.5.3 Installer (on the PB 5300c hard disk). Custom Install. System software. Minimal system for this Macintosh computer. Noticed odd values available space. Installed onto the CF card.

- Shut down. New start (Command Option+ShiftDelete). Booted OK (several times) from the CF card.

- Shut down. Selected the CF card via the Startup disk control panel (in the 7.5.5 system folder on the hard disk, since the minimal system on the CF card had a limited set of control panels). New start. The PowerBook was able to (repeatedly) boot from the CF card.

I will continue with a full installation of System 7.5.3 (Easy Install) onto the CF card (after having reinitialised/erased it via Erase Disk in the Special menu). Also intend to try Drive Setup 1.7.3 (Zero all data under Initialization Options in the Functions menu) and yet another 7.5.3 system software installation later.

Jan

A H1 Author

Level 1

53 points

Jun 25, 2009 12:49 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

Hi All,

wow, this topic has grown in involvement. Nice to see so many people with vintage PB's 🙂

anyway, here's my update. sorry I've been sick so haven't been able to stare at a computer too much for the past couple of days... (and also digging through boxes in the garage looking for small CFs.)

this is what I've tried so far:

system: 5300c, 56M RAM, 500M internal HD. until recently it was running solely off the AC (no main battery attached). just put an old main battery in.. but no change to "bus error" problem booting off CF cards.

I do have another 5300c, but that one has a bad power connector (socket ripped off from motherboard) so it won't power up... sigh... good for replacement parts,though.

4G Kingston elite pro
currently formatted HFS+. will not recognize system folder at all. will have to reformat as HFS (will get to this next)

1G Sandisk Ultra II
formatted HFS. installed 8.1, 5300c will recognize the system folder, but reports "bus error". putting 8.6 same. will try to reformat and put in 7.6 (or will try downloading 7.5.3)

16M Canon CF
just dug this out. installed the DiskTools system folder in it. will boot! now trying to install minimal 7.6 or something... (gosh, OS7 looks very plain compared to other OS... forgotten how OS6/7 looked like!).

so... seems like my 5300c may have some lower CF capacity limitation than the others.

A H1 Author

Level 1

53 points

Jun 25, 2009 2:43 PM in response to A H1

ok, I re-initialize/formatted the Kingston 4G 133x elite pro card using Drive Setup (not through menu->special->erase disk) and formatted it HFS (previously was formatted using Lombarde running 9.2, using menu->special->erase disk to HFS+).

then installed OS 7.5.3... and now it boots!!! rebooted few times, no problem, from the 4G 133x CF.

now installing OS 8.0/8.1 and see if that works... if it follows Niteshooter, it will not boot from 8.0/8.1. we shall see...

if OS 8 works, then the issue may be how the card was initialized/formatted (using Drive Setup instead of Menu-->special-->erase disk?). the 1G Sandisk Ultra II still doesn't boot, btw... will try reinitializing using Drive Setup and see if that makes any difference.

also, it didn't make a difference with the 1G card, but the machine now currently has a main battery installed, which may or may not affect PRAM battery charging as Niteshooter previously suggested..

Jan Hedlund

Level 7

24,235 points

Jun 25, 2009 3:35 PM in response to A H1

Hi A H1,

I will continue with a full installation of System 7.5.3 (Easy Install) onto the CF card (after having reinitialised/erased it via Erase Disk in the Special menu). Also intend to try Drive Setup 1.7.3 (Zero all data under Initialization Options in the Functions menu) and yet another 7.5.3 system software installation later.

Tested both methods. So far, the 4 GB SanDisk Ultra II CompactFlash card has been working fine as a startup disk every time .

If you wish to use Drive Setup for the formatting, try the downloadable 1.7.3 version (drag-copy the Drive Setup application from the mounted disk image to the PB 5300c hard disk). The versions on (for example) 7.5.2, 7.6, 8.1 and 8.5 disks/discs are older.

Jan

A H1 Author

Level 1

53 points

Jun 25, 2009 11:49 PM in response to Jan Hedlund

HA! Success!!!!

After re-initializing my CF cards using Drive Setup (don't know which version... probably the one that came with OS8.1), and instead of using a default initialization method, I did Custom initialization and chose 1 partition, and then reformatted the CF cards.

on both cards (4G Kingston 133x elite pro, and 1G San Disk Ultra II), which previously the 5300c would report bus error and not boot, booted well with OS7.5.3 installed. Then I installed OS 8.1 (install OS8.0 then upgrade to OS 8.1.. Since I no longer have an external CD-ROM, I had to make a disk image using Lombarde, transfer it to the 5300c via CF card, and install using 5300c), and now it boots fine from the PC card slot.

Now I'm about to do the ultimate test of hooking up the CF card to the IDE adapter, and see if it works... (this I think will have to wait until tomorrow.. too late tonight...)

I did download the Drive Setup 1.7.3 that Jan suggested. haven't used it yet. Might try to update the driver and see if that makes any difference too.

was interesting booting into 7.5.3.... forgotten how fast OS7 was, in comparison to OS8... and primitive looking! Nostalgic... but missing too many convenience factors, so I'm glad OS8.1 runs ok...

One thing I did notice during installation, is that previously, the installer would not report the correct free disk space on the CF cards that were initialized using the menu-->Special-->Erase Disk method. now it seems to see the entire disk size. so I suspect the way I had initialized the CF cards was one of the main problems.

now, the next test would be to install JLK (Japanese Language Kit) and see if it still functions 🙂 or partition the CF card and see if that will allow stable dual-OS installation (I do have System Switcher that will allow me to choose which OS to boot from even if I have multiple system folder on the same partition, but that sometimes seem to cause weird instabilities too, so...). I wonder if I can boot my Lombarde using the CF card now (I'll have to install OS8.6 for it, though)

Fun!

I will post again once I get the CF card installed in the IDE bus and report...

A H1 Author

Level 1

53 points

Jun 26, 2009 12:57 PM in response to A H1

HA again! Success!

I took the 1G CF SanDisk UltraII that succeeded in booting off the PC Card slot onto the IDE-to-CF adapter, and replaced the internal HD.

I now have a very SILENT PB 5300C!!!

lessons learned:
1. reformat/re-initialize using Drive Setup, HFS (Standard OS). I chose 1 partition to make sure everything on the CF card was destroyed before reinitializing

2. OS 7.5.3 clean install works

3. OS 8.1 clean install works! (did not try 8.6 nor any of the OS9.. but not needed for my needs, so I did't install)

4. PB 5300C can handle 4G Kingston Elite Pro 133x, so at least up to 4G and to 133x acceleration, it can handle it.

5. PB feels more responsive than with HD, and than with booting off of CF using PC card slot. waking from sleep may be tad faster, but not too much.

Thanks to all! it's strange to have a machine boot silently, with no HD clicking sounds to confirm it hasn't froze, but otherwise, it's really nice not to hear the incessant HD whine anymore!

Thank you all for all your suggestions and help!

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Powerbook 5300c & booting from CF cards (PCMCIA & as IDE drive)