Q: Firmware update and SATA II hard drive

I just noticed ComputerWorld picked up this story on their blogs:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/14867/pcbites_the_apple_and_the_signs_of_adownfall

Maybe Apple will take notice and fix it.

My last post on this topic got deleted, so let me try and re-ask the question in a way that doesn't warrant its deletion.

I have this problem, just like everyone else. What is the right next step for us to get a resolution to fix it? Here's what appear to be options suggested by people here:

1) Use the MacBook Support complaint page (which I've done -- does this typically work?)

2) Revert to the previous version of the firmware (debate whether this violates the warranty, and whether Apple Geniuses can actually do this).

Are there any other suggestions this group of people has for actively resolving this in a more macro level? There are 1600 posts here, and a lot of other people reading this (apparently, within Apple too). What constructive feedback do you guys have for resolution of this technical issue?

Apple, no reason why to delete this message. It's on-topic, and abides by your Forum User Agreement. Keep the discussion going, please.

dstofel wrote:
I've got a refurbished 13 MacBook Pro (base model: 2.26 GHz, 160 Gb stock HDD, upgraded to 4Gb Ram). Just picked it up 3 weeks ago. I'm on SL and have the 1.7 update (ie notice Boot Rom ending in B03). Performance is ok(ish) for my use. However, programs are slow to start (ie pages takes a few "bounces" to come up, etc...) and I wanted to upgrade to a faster HDD (SATA II). I was thinking either WD Scorpio blue (5400 rpm) or WD Scorpio black (7200 rpm)

Question: Given the various postings in this thread, will upgrading the HDD to one of the options noted above be a complete waste of time for me? What are the odds that I will be affected by the "beachball/freezing" issues mentioned in this thread (80% chance, 90%, 100%). Or, should I give it a go as there is a "reasonable" chace that I won't have an issue (ie is the problem hit/miss)?

It's unclear at what rate this problem affects candidate MacBook Pros (13" and 15" models from the mid-June refresh). Part of the problem is that some users are unaware of the issue or what it looks like, some are mistaking other beachballing for this issue, and it can be difficult to ascertain what a particular hard drive's firmware specifies the interface to be. All we have to go on are individual user reports -- not the most solid thing to base a risk assessment on.

If you have an Apple Store nearby where you could get the firmware downgrade, then you may see some improved performance. Traditional hard drives, especially laptop drives, will not saturate a SATA I bus. Right now, the SATA II implementation on certain MacBook Pros is broken... but if you get the EFI firmware downgraded to version 1.6, your new drive will be able to operate at its full capability without the glitches from EFI version 1.7. The downside is that you are stuck on stale firmware until the EFI 1.7 issue is resolved (which may or may not be the case with any 1.8 or beyond release).

If you do not have an Apple Store nearby, you can downgrade the firmware yourself with tools that have been posted online. But I wouldn't recommend this to anyone who isn't absolutely comfortable doing so, because it will void your warranty and you will require assistance if anything goes wrong.

I guess "worse case" if I bought the drive from a place where I could return it if I did have an issue, there is not much risk. Does this sound reasonable?

Many places that allow returns will also charge restocking fees. If you decide to go this route, be sure you are aware of any such fees ahead of time.

JimboZZ wrote:
I just noticed ComputerWorld picked up this story on their blogs:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/14867/pcbites_the_apple_and_the_signs_of_adownfall

Maybe Apple will take notice and fix it.

Hooray! It's always good to see this issue get the attention it deserves. I'm not sure how closely Apple follows ComputerWorld... but I'm pretty sure the attention couldn't hurt our chances of a fix.

krambox wrote:
I have this problem, just like everyone else. What is the right next step for us to get a resolution to fix it? Here's what appear to be options suggested by people here:

1) Use the MacBook Support complaint page (which I've done -- does this typically work?)

Not in the sense you are probably thinking of. There is no proper fix for this issue, but the more that people who let Apple know this is unacceptable with their purchased product, the more likely we are to see a fix in the future.

2) Revert to the previous version of the firmware (debate whether this violates the warranty, and whether Apple Geniuses can actually do this).

This is the best band-aid option at the moment. Doing it yourself will void the warranty, and the Genius Bar can actually do this (it's just a question of whether they know it). The downgrade makes SSDs rather pointless to buy, and you are stuck on old firmware until the problem is properly addressed (nothing says it will be if there ever is a version 1.8), but it does resolve the glitches due to the broken SATA II implementation.

Are there any other suggestions this group of people has for actively resolving this in a more macro level? There are 1600 posts here, and a lot of other people reading this (apparently, within Apple too). What constructive feedback do you guys have for resolution of this technical issue?

Yes. It's somewhat related to #1, but (in my opinion) more important.

3) Call Apple Support about the issue... weekly, if possible. There is nothing they can do for you right now, but phone support is expensive and if enough people are complaining about it, those costs add up and all of a sudden this issue becomes more of a priority. There are 1,592 replies in this thread alone (more elsewhere), there is a certain influence that can be leveraged with these kinds of numbers.

Downgrading the firmware wont void you warranty at all.
Apple will claim that it will but all you will need to do is to re-flash 1.7 from software update.

fishbert wrote:

If you have an Apple Store nearby where you could get the firmware downgrade, then you may see some improved performance. Traditional hard drives, especially laptop drives, will not saturate a SATA I bus.

Thanks Fishbert! That's probably good advise. I guess it's one thing if I were planning to replace the stock HDD with a SSD (ie where I would really see the benefit of SATA II). However, since I was only planning to upgrade to one of the WD Scorpio's (Blue/Black) and don't really need the extra space >160 GB (for now anyway).....why tempt fate? Probably better just to downgrade back to efi 1.6 for now, live with the stock 160GB drive, let this drama play itself out and see if a fix from Apple is forthcoming.

BenR167 wrote:
Downgrading the firmware wont void you warranty at all.
Apple will claim that it will but all you will need to do is to re-flash 1.7 from software update.

+"This warranty does not apply: (a) ... (e) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (f) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”); (g) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple; ..."+
http://images.apple.com/legal/warranty/docs/cpuwarranty.pdf

Unauthorized downgrading of the firmware would apply to each of those three exclusion provisions. The last one would apply across the board, and the first two would apply if any problems were to arise due to the downgrade.

Yes, if everything goes well, you can put the 1.7 firmware back with the Software Update utility and it would be difficult for Apple to tell that the warranty was violated. But that doesn't mean that the warranty has not been violated by the downgrade. And if everything doesn't go well, then you've violated all three of the above, and fixing it will not be covered as a warranty repair (unless your local Apple Store is particularly generous and looks the other way).

The question isn't "does this violate the warranty?"
The question is "will I get away with it?" +(and the answer is "probably")+

krambox wrote:
My last post on this topic got deleted, so let me try and re-ask the question in a way that doesn't warrant its deletion.

...

Apple, no reason why to delete this message. It's on-topic, and abides by your Forum User Agreement. Keep the discussion going, please.

Just read your first post in my email (subscription notice).
You mentioned the C-A words. They censor you in here if you start talking about that legal option (though it's something that at least that seems to get Apple's attention).

Downgrading to firmware 1.6 is NOT voiding the warranty. In fact, you can just as easy claim that upgrading the firmware from 1.6 to the pushed 1.7 is voiding the warranty. If you read Apple's now infamous legal wording for firmware 1.7 that can be construed as unsupported and experimental.

Bottom line: downgrading to a released firmware for this released computer model is not voiding warranty. It is just downgrading a firmware. Nothing else. If you would hack and change the firmware from it original code or apply a firmware not made for this model then perhaps we can talk about voiding warranty.

Can we please stop miss-information here. We have already had lies about that changing harddrives or memory voiding warranty, also that there is one supported version of harddrives and that is Mac version of harddrives. That was also lies. All these lies have been refuted by hardware manufacturers even here in this thread and Apple support.

JimboZZ wrote:
I just noticed ComputerWorld picked up this story on their blogs:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/14867/pcbites_the_apple_and_the_signs_of_adownfall

Maybe Apple will take notice and fix it.

It was posted on DailyTech a month ago as well:

http://www.dailytech.com/1315+MacBook+Pro+Owners+Still+Plagued+with+SATA+IIIssues/article16233.htm

Still nothing from Apple

pepparkaka wrote:
Downgrading to firmware 1.6 is NOT voiding the warranty. In fact, you can just as easy claim that upgrading the firmware from 1.6 to the pushed 1.7 is voiding the warranty. If you read Apple's now infamous legal wording for firmware 1.7 that can be construed as unsupported and experimental.

Bottom line: downgrading to a released firmware for this released computer model is not voiding warranty. It is just downgrading a firmware. Nothing else. If you would hack and change the firmware from it original code or apply a firmware not made for this model then perhaps we can talk about voiding warranty.

When a user downgrades their own firmware using software tools that leaked online, but was only ever released to (and intended for use by) Apple Genius Bar personnel… they are modifying their laptop "to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple" (see line item (g) in the warranty snippet I posted previously).

Yes, it is not obvious to Apple that a warranty agreement violation took place, and one would likely still receive warranty service (more power to you). But to say that a violation didn't take place is like believing the world ceases to exist when you close your eyes.

We have already had lies about that changing harddrives or memory voiding warranty…

The product manual and other Apple documents provided to the end users give written permission to upgrade or replace RAM and hard drives. As such, these activities are not in violation of the warranty agreement, and are not equivalent to flashing device firmware with tools not released for customer use.

Can we please stop miss-information here.

Completely agree with you on this one! Perhaps you'd care to back up your assertion with proper citation (as I have done with my assertion). Until such a time, your assertion remains baseless and can easily be identified as mis-information.

I am pretty sure that the SATA bus is controlled by the nVidia chipset in the MBPs. I was wondering if anyone has looked into this given the past issues related to nVidia's products.

pepparkaka wrote:
Can we please stop miss-information here. We have already had lies about that changing harddrives or memory voiding warranty, also that there is one supported version of harddrives and that is Mac version of harddrives. That was also lies. All these lies have been refuted by hardware manufacturers even here in this thread and Apple support.

I dunno about if MAC versions of drives are a lie... After I took my aftermarket 5k500.b 500GB drive out to set it back to 3Gbps for testing HDAPM, I decided to hook up the small 5k500.b which came with the mac to see if apple had it set to 1.5; however, the Hitachi feature tool would not allow me to change the setting or see what it was set to!

If there was not a special apple firmware on the drive that came with the MBP, why else would I not be able to select the speed of the interface? They both are of the same 5k500.b series of Hitachi drives.

Fejimush wrote:
I am pretty sure that the SATA bus is controlled by the nVidia chipset in the MBPs. I was wondering if anyone has looked into this given the past issues related to nVidia's products.

The previous MacBook Pro has exactly the same NVIDIA chip, yet supported a properly-functioning SATA II interface just fine.

katmeef wrote:

pepparkaka wrote:
Can we please stop miss-information here. We have already had lies about that changing harddrives or memory voiding warranty, also that there is one supported version of harddrives and that is Mac version of harddrives. That was also lies. All these lies have been refuted by hardware manufacturers even here in this thread and Apple support.

I dunno about if MAC versions of drives are a lie... After I took my aftermarket 5k500.b 500GB drive out to set it back to 3Gbps for testing HDAPM, I decided to hook up the small 5k500.b which came with the mac to see if apple had it set to 1.5; however, the Hitachi feature tool would not allow me to change the setting or see what it was set to!

If there was not a special apple firmware on the drive that came with the MBP, why else would I not be able to select the speed of the interface? They both are of the same 5k500.b series of Hitachi drives.

I think what pepparkaka was referring to were 3rd party drives that are marketed as "Mac-compatible" and cost $50 or so more than the exact same drive that's not labeled as such.