Q: Firmware update and SATA II hard drive

Hi,

I am thinking about buy a new MBP 13", I see that they came with 5400rpm HDD and SL, I have four simply questions:

1. will the notebook work perfectly in the default configuration?

2. if I want to upgrade to a 7200rpm disk will I have issues?

3. what about case temperatures and vibration with 7200rpm drive on MBP 13"?

4. is that a problem related to 13" MBP only?

Thanks!

Macs are great computers. I have several myself. What i had found to be the most important component in term of performance, from the 3 macbook i own is: the memory. The MBP 13" is nice, just make sure it comes with 4 Gb ram. I have a Macbook 13" Unibody, a Macbook Pro 15" and a Macbook Pro 15" Unibody all with 4 Gb. of ram and they perform very well.

No body can tell you if you will have a problem with a 7200 RPM drive. Some do, some don't. If you have Apple install it they will take your machine back if any problem cannot be remedied.

Every 7200 has been louder than every 5400 that I have used. That does not mean a lot, but it is never-the-less true. Heat is not going to be an issue to speak of with a 7200. The additional heat will be very minimal. Don't forget that the initial indexing of Spotlight might get a bit warm.

So here is the bottom line... what is more important to you, a bit more speed or a bit less noise?

My 5400 Hitachi is almost silent. I bought and installed a 7200 WD and took it out just because it was not silent. It was faster but I like quiet more than speed.

Does anybody know whether Hitachi 500 Gb 5K500.B drive (HTS545050B9A300) is also prone to this problem? I didn't make it through all 109 pages, but those posts I've seen were related either to Seagate or WD drives. I know that 'A3' suffux in Hitachi drive model means 'SATA 3Gb/s' (the stock drive in my MBP is HTS545016B9SA02, and A02 means SATA1, I suppose), but maybe Hitachi drives behave better since this series is installed by Apple as a default option (though not 500Gb models)?
Did anybody have an experience with these drives?

cheers123 wrote:
Does anybody know whether Hitachi 500 Gb 5K500.B drive (HTS545050B9A300) is also prone to this problem? I didn't make it through all 109 pages, but those posts I've seen were related either to Seagate or WD drives. I know that 'A3' suffux in Hitachi drive model means 'SATA 3Gb/s' (the stock drive in my MBP is HTS545016B9SA02, and A02 means SATA1, I suppose), but maybe Hitachi drives behave better since this series is installed by Apple as a default option (though not 500Gb models)?
Did anybody have an experience with these drives?

Yes I have the problem with that aftermarket drive, although it does not report CRC errors as many others do.
I'm pretty sure it's the same problem... the 5k500.b allows you to force it to 1.5Gb/s via the Hitachi feature tool (which stopped the problem for me) - when I put it back to 3.0Gb/s the problem returned.

Interesting to note my MBP shipped with a smaller 5k500.b from Apple which does not allow you to choose the speed via the Hitachi feature tool (Apple must have a custom FW on the one that shipped with the MBP)



smartctl version 5.38 [i386-apple-darwin10.0.0] Copyright (C) 2002-8 Bruce Allen
Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model: Hitachi HTS545050B9A300
Serial Number: 090328PB4400Q7GEUB8A
Firmware Version: PB4OC60G
User Capacity: 500,107,862,016 bytes
Device is: Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is: 8
ATA Standard is: Not recognized. Minor revision code: 0x28
Local Time is: Mon Oct 12 09:40:33 2009 EDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

.......

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
1 RawRead_ErrorRate 0x000b 100 100 062 Pre-fail Always - 0
2 Throughput_Performance 0x0005 100 100 040 Pre-fail Offline - 0
3 SpinUpTime 0x0007 215 215 033 Pre-fail Always - 2
4 StartStopCount 0x0012 099 099 000 Old_age Always - 1803
5 ReallocatedSectorCt 0x0033 100 100 005 Pre-fail Always - 0
7 SeekErrorRate 0x000b 100 100 067 Pre-fail Always - 0
8 SeekTimePerformance 0x0005 100 100 040 Pre-fail Offline - 0
9 PowerOnHours 0x0012 099 099 000 Old_age Always - 849
10 SpinRetryCount 0x0013 100 100 060 Pre-fail Always - 0
12 PowerCycleCount 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 737
191 G-SenseErrorRate 0x000a 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
192 Power-OffRetractCount 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 458760
193 LoadCycleCount 0x0012 092 092 000 Old_age Always - 85524
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0002 203 203 000 Old_age Always - 27 (Lifetime Min/Max 18/43)
196 ReallocatedEventCount 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
197 CurrentPendingSector 0x0022 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0008 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 0
199 UDMACRC_ErrorCount 0x000a 200 200 000 Old_age Always - 0
223 LoadRetryCount 0x000a 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0

SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged

Message was edited by: katmeef
--forgot to mention to also set "spread-spectrum clocking" to off when using the Hitachi feature tool to set the drive down to 1.5Gb/s

Thank you, katmeef!

Just let me try to summarize (may be not the first time across this huge thread ;)) workarounds available at the moment:

1) Downgrade to 1.6 at Apple Genius or with AluminumMacBook_ProRecovery.dmg firmware downgrader found on the Internet, install any modern 9.5mm SATA-2 drive, and don't agree to EFI 1.7 update offered by OS X, or Snow Leopard installer (if upgrading) until Apple releases new EFI firmware which will hopefully deliver a proper fix. Technically, this unauthorized operation will void your warranty, but most people here believe there's no way for Apple to notice that unauthorized downgrade actually took place, especially if you'll later upgrade back to 1.7.

2) Buy Hitachi HTS545050B9A300 and hope that its firmware revision let you to lock it down to SATA-1 (and disabling spread-spectrum clocking option) with Hitachi feature tool (http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm). This operation will require a desktop PC, since Mac keyboard doesn't work under DOS, in which Hitachi feature tool runs. You should also have access to that PC's motherboard SATA connectors, since Hitachi feature tool won't recognize HDD if it's connected through external USB enclosure. It won't require any kind of SATA 2.5" -> 3.5" adapter, since SATA connectors are the same for either form factor.

Personally, I'm going to go the second way, since after doing some research I've found that Seagate drive has stability issues (many users report hdd crash after using it for short time, at newegg there are lots of negative feedbacks), others report that WD Scorpio has noise/vibration or gets too hot (Seagate was also reported with these issues), and all these 7200 rpm drives drain your battery faster. Hitachi 5k500b is 5400 rpm drive and though not as fast as 7200 drives, it has balanced performance and low power consumption (according to this review http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/mobile-hdd-notebook,2305.html). I think I'll give it a try, especially considering EFI 1.7 problem workaround available for this hdd.

Please correct me if I missed something.

Message was edited by: cheers123

cheers123 wrote:
Does anybody know whether Hitachi 500 Gb 5K500.B drive (HTS545050B9A300) is also prone to this problem? ... maybe Hitachi drives behave better since this series is installed by Apple as a default option (though not 500Gb models)?
Did anybody have an experience with these drives?

This is an interface problem with the laptop's firmware, not a problem with hard drives. The only distinction is that drives designed for a SATA I interface aren't asking the firmware to clock data through at a fast enough rate for the problem to show up. This is the case with Apple-provided drives, as they are SATA I limited. Pretty much any drive you buy as a replacement or upgrade will be SATA II (current Newegg stock: 7 SATA I against 43 SATA II) and will potentially bring out this issue with the laptop.

In other words: this issue is hard drive make/model-independent - there is no SATA II drive out there that is more or less likely to "behave better" than any other.

-------

You posted your above reply after I started this one… it sounds like you've got things straight.

I will point out that many who limit the interface speed of the drive on their own (myself with a jumper) still see the issue, just much less frequently. There was a post much earlier on that said with the Hitachi tool he had to limit the interface speed as well as disable spread-spectrum capability (going off memory here) to get the issue to go away. So, your milage may vary.

oldmanpants wrote:
Here is what happened with Apple Care...

The first support person I spoke with put me though to a 'product specialist' when I said that I wanted a replacement MBP given that the one I have is not currently usable, and that I am getting quite frustrated.

The product specialist took me though one further hardware test, which you can find on the 'applications' DVD that comes with your new MBP. The test revealed no issues with the hardware.

At that point, the product specialist said that Apple is aware of the issue is an is working on a firmware update that will fix the issues with efi 1.7. He said that he is instructed by Apple to tell people who are having the issue to "sit tight" until the new firmware arrives.

The specialist also said that Apple would do nothing else to help out with my situation. I know it could be quite expensive for apple to have to provide (working) replacement machines to people who are having the issue. But at least Apple could release a beta version of the new firmware to people that request it. All I know is that I have already lost a few days of work because of the issue, and I really can't afford to lose any more. I'm not sure why the Apple user should be the one to bear the cost of product research and development.

Message was edited by: oldmanpants

This is great to hear, and I hope it's true… but we've been hearing similar for quite a while now, and I've been hoping it's been true for far longer than I'd like.

oldmanpants wrote:
Here is what happened with Apple Care...

At that point, the product specialist said that Apple is aware of the issue is an is working on a firmware update that will fix the issues with efi 1.7. He said that he is instructed by Apple to tell people who are having the issue to "sit tight" until the new firmware arrives.

These guys beg to differ:

http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/10/13/bad-news-for-efi-1-7-basedmacbook-pro-own ers

It's my understanding that these folks have a good track record on this sort of stuff.

I hope this isn't true.

Another complaining user: freezing 5 to 10 times per hour... incredible they didn't fixed it yet!

Message was edited by: grodwar

Maybe we should start posting our hardware configuration, plus the make and model of the hard drive, in order to find similarities in the machines that are having difficulty.

Computer:
Model Identifier: MacBookPro5,4
Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo
Processor Speed: 2.53 GHz
Number Of Processors: 1
Total Number Of Cores: 2
L2 Cache: 3 MB
Memory: 4 GB
Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MBP53.00AC.B02
SMC Version (system): 1.49f2

Hard Drive: Seagate Momentus 5400 250GB (provided by Apple)
Capacity: 250.06 GB (250,059,350,016 bytes)
Model: ST9250315ASG
Revision: 0004APM2

it ***** a bit yes. but Apple can not test every possible configuration out there before releasing everything. And that includes drives, memory etc that you might put in your machine. And I bet if you had read all the lovely warranty info you would have seen that they don't support the components you add. the whole "won't void your warranty" simply means the act of replacing that part doesn't negate getting support on everything else that might fail.

it seems that 90% of the troubles are coming from folks that replaced the hard drive themselves. Hopefully you all went to an Apple store and let the Geniuses scan your system and report the details of what you did and what happened to their higher ups so this can be fixed and with luck better prevented in the future.

And to all the snarkmeisters, no company or system is infallable, including Apple. To stop with the "I'm shocked" nonsense. They tested the best they could on the components they use, which is really all they can do.

oldmanpants wrote:
Maybe we should start posting our hardware configuration, plus the make and model of the hard drive, in order to find similarities in the machines that are having difficulty.

_*Or maybe not!*_

Perhaps you're unaware, but this thread is already 109 pages long. What you're suggesting has been suggested before, has been tried before, and has been proven pointless before. So please don't encourage people to clog this already extremely long thread with pointless junk that nobody will ever sort through anyway.

You want to know the pattern with hardware? People who experience this issue have MacBook Pros with the SD memory card slot, EFI 1.7 firmware, and a SATA II capable drive (HDD, SSD, whatever... any SATA II drive... from any manufacturer... of any size... rotating at any speed... or even not, in the case of SSDs... etc.).

Did lots of people send me their hardware profiles while you weren't looking so that I cold figure this out? No! All the data one needs to discern this is already in the previous 108 pages of this thread. Let me guess... you didn't read all of those pages, did you? I know... let's add a bunch of hardware profile filler spread out over the next 15 pages! That will make it sooo much easier to figure out what we already know.

I know you feel like you're doing something constrictive by posting things nobody cares about to find a hardware pattern that we already know. But it's really not helpful... it's the exact opposite of helpful. So please don't.

PJRives wrote:
it ***** a bit yes. but Apple can not test every possible configuration out there before releasing everything. And that includes drives, memory etc that you might put in your machine. And I bet if you had read all the lovely warranty info you would have seen that they don't support the components you add. the whole "won't void your warranty" simply means the act of replacing that part doesn't negate getting support on everything else that might fail.

it seems that 90% of the troubles are coming from folks that replaced the hard drive themselves. Hopefully you all went to an Apple store and let the Geniuses scan your system and report the details of what you did and what happened to their higher ups so this can be fixed and with luck better prevented in the future.

And to all the snarkmeisters, no company or system is infallable, including Apple. To stop with the "I'm shocked" nonsense. They tested the best they could on the components they use, which is really all they can do.

This is not a question of demanding infallibility. These systems are having issues employing an industry standard SATA interface. The problem affects the ability to communicate reliably with mass storage devices, which you will agree is somewhat important in computer systems. The affected drives are from reputable manufacturers and they appear to work perfectly in external enclosures. Apple released the June MBPs with slower SATA interfaces than the previous models, which is curious to say the least. The EFI version 1.7 update followed quickly after the press began reporting on the slower interface. But that update's cure was worse than the disease for many people.

I don't think that Apple's customers are being too demanding in requesting a solution to this problem now. It's been about four months since the problem was first reported. Even the remedy of reverting to EFI version 1.6 was botched. Most "Geniuses" didn't know it could be done (some still don't) and Apple's braver customers resorted to doing it themselves using a file that was distributed over the web by some forum poster.

It really can't be this hard for Apple's engineers to identify the problem and fix it.

Point taken (sort of), but you you don't have to be a **** Fishbert.

We still don't know the exact pattern, and we don't know why some machines are working fine and some are not. Can you explain that Fishbert?