Q: Firmware update and SATA II hard drive

Ponzi wrote:

It really can't be this hard for Apple's engineers to identify the problem and fix it.

Unless the SATA controller simply isn't up to spec. There must be good reason why they didn't enable SATA II in the first place. Only after the complaints started raining down did they come out with what looks more like a quick 'n dirty hack than anything else.

Apple may find themselves in a catch 22 here. Imagine all 13" and 15" MBP's sold since June '09 being potentially flawed. If they can't fix it through firmware then you bet they're weighing their options.

It's probably similar to the airplane scene in Fight Club:

Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Yes, I'm still hoping for EFI 1.8 which will make everything nice and smooth -like it should've been in the first place.

However, I'm not holding my breath.

oldmanpants wrote:
We still don't know the exact pattern, and we don't know why some machines are working fine and some are not. Can you explain that Fishbert?

Sure I can.

The operation of a complex system (such as a laptop... or even as seemingly small as a hard drive interface) is built upon individual specifications of behavior characteristics. For example, when we say a SATA II interface operates at 3.0 Gb/s, we don't be it's always precisely 3,000,000,000 bits per second; there is an acceptable tolerance associated with the number (each and every number in a specification). Ideally , the tolerance for the receiving end of a function is a bit wider than the tolerance on the driving end. In this manner, compatibility is assured.

But in the end, each and ever specification line-item is a statistical function, typically characterized with a Gaussian distribution (bell curve). This distribution is caused by deviations in materials, processes, temperature, age... any manner of outside influences that make a singular product just that slight bit different from another of the same kind. One of the main goals in industrial manufacturing is to reduce these variances as much as possible... but they are always there.

If a design is marginal - if the distribution of one end of a specification does not conform to what the distribution of the other end is expecting - some percentage of interactions between these two ends of a specification line-item will not conform to the specification, and the interaction may fail in any number of ways. Sometimes these failures are important and noticeable... sometimes they are not.

My explanation for why some machines are working fine and some are not is a combination of the above principle of statistics with marginal designs and the general unreliability of individual user reports.

Well - according to this site we should not wait for a 1.8 EFI update!!
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/10/13/bad-news-for-efi-1-7-basedmacbook-pro-own ers

Mhmm...

but the answer to this problem isn't already here?

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3561?viewlocale=en_US

Apple says exactly that "has not qualified or offered these drives for Mac portable computers, and their use remains unsupported."
Their portables are made to work with SATA 1.5Gbps Drives.

So, for what I can understand, if you have a 1.5Gbps drive it should work perfectly even at 5400 or 7200 rpm ( I don't know if this is true, I didn't read all 100 pages ).
Current generation of Macbook Pro is able to support 1.5Gbps drives only and they are limited to this.
If you want to try 3 Gbps, you have to know that you are running alone, with no support from apple, and this could be the reason why they didn't say anything more and someone in the link above says that apple is not working at all on 1.8 firmware.
They have made a try, nothing more at the moment.

Anyway, just to know, are other pc notebooks supporting these 3 Gbps drives?
Is it a so big bottle nek to have 1.5Gbps only?

Thanks

fauzzo wrote:
Mhmm...

but the answer to this problem isn't already here?

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3561?viewlocale=en_US

Apple says exactly that "has not qualified or offered these drives for Mac portable computers, and their use remains unsupported."
Their portables are made to work with SATA 1.5Gbps Drives.

So, for what I can understand, if you have a 1.5Gbps drive it should work perfectly even at 5400 or 7200 rpm ( I don't know if this is true, I didn't read all 100 pages ).
Current generation of Macbook Pro is able to support 1.5Gbps drives only and they are limited to this.
If you want to try 3 Gbps, you have to know that you are running alone, with no support from apple, and this could be the reason why they didn't say anything more and someone in the link above says that apple is not working at all on 1.8 firmware.
They have made a try, nothing more at the moment.

Anyway, just to know, are other pc notebooks supporting these 3 Gbps drives?
Is it a so big bottle nek to have 1.5Gbps only?

Thanks

If Apple wants to say that the MacBook Pro line only supports SATA I, that's fine. They are entitled to do so. But in such a case, they should not enable by default SATA II "support".

Apple originally said the MBPs only support SATA I... but then they were heavily criticized for the "downgrade" from the previous generation that supported SATA II drives just fine. Rather than standing by their claim and product, they hastily released a (buggy) firmware update to enable "unofficial" SATA II support. The problem is that this "unofficial" support firmware was pushed out to everyone via Software Update, and now comes pre-installed on every new machine.

When I looked a day or two ago, of the 50 laptop hard drive models for sale on Newegg.com, only seven (7) were SATA I drives. This means that pretty much anyone who wants to replace the original drive in their MacBook Pro (an activity that Apple even provides DIY instructions for) may run into this crippling problem.

If Apple wants to still say the MBPs only support SATA I, then they should pull EFI 1.7 completely and stick with the original SATA I firmware. This would cap the interface at 1.5 Gb/s, which is a downgrade from the previous generation and would seriously calls into question their claim that the MacBook Pros are a top-of-the-line professional platform (and consumers can make their own decisions as to whether such a product is worth thousands of their dollars) ... but the serious problem at hand would be solved. That's what's called honest business practice. But what Apple has chosen to do so far is hide behind a one-liner in firmware update release notes (which purchasers of new machines will likely never see anyway) so that they don't have to face the harsh media scrutiny they were exposed to before. That's called cowardice and taking advantage of the customer base.

Anyway, just to know, are other pc notebooks supporting these 3 Gbps drives?
Is it a so big bottle nek to have 1.5Gbps only?

Other PC notebooks support 3Gbps drives, it is an industry standard and it is totally not expectable that a "Pro" machine does not work with any drive on the market that meets that standard. What is the last machine you have had that needed a "special" hard drive, for me it is at least 15 years ago.

And yes it is a big bottle neck, according to my benchmarks on my 13" MBP the write speed would be lowered by 25% and the read speed by 42% when using my SSD.

It's hard to search within this thread, so forgive me if this has already been covered.

Has anyone noticed any improvement with a swap of the ribbon cable that attaches the hard drive to the board? I've read that Apple has replaced that for a few people.

I just got a refurb 13" and it has the new firmware (maybe it's one someone here returned...hmm).

I ask because I'm replacing mine and could report before I drop my firmware back to 1.6. Since I tore the ribbon (man, it's fragile!) my warranty is toast anyway per Apple, although I wouldn't concede that, being a lawyer (Apple sez they won't sell me a replacement cable; they want $85 to replace it just for labor, and don't warrant their work, and would take the opportunity to note that my warranty as a whole would be shot. No thanks; I'll do it myself).

Rob

robgendreau wrote:
(Apple sez they won't sell me a replacement cable; they want $85 to replace it just for labor, and don't warrant their work, and would take the opportunity to note that my warranty as a whole would be shot. No thanks; I'll do it myself).

Rob

This does not sound right. Are you certain that this is what was said? I would have to have this in writing and then I would call Apple's SOS line and explain what you have been told. Apple does warrant their work.

Yes; that's what they said. I was trying to find a way it would be worth my while at that price to bring it in for such a simple repair. I told them it wasn't a warranty repair since I broke the cable, and they quoted the price. Then I asked if the fact that they repaired it meant the work was warranted, and he said no.

Frankly given what I've heard about Apple repairs I'd rather do it myself anyway. And I'll leave it to others to hassle Apple; I love their design and engineering, but their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. As this thread demonstrates.

Alright, pay attention:

There will be NO updated firmware nor a fix, take it from this idiot.
There is only ONE solution to this problem.

1. Video tape the occurence as fishbert had originally done.

2. Make your way to an apple store.

3. Replace logic board.

4. Repeat step 1-3, three times.

5. Call apple care and request an exchange.

6. Repeat step 5 until you get a unit which doesn't show these symptoms.

Victory !!!!

I talked to them and they released an update for our issue. It is not a firmware update, but it says that it corrects the issue. Let's see if it works ....

You should have it shortly, i had it, and i'll tell you if it fixed anything ...

cheers

Hmmm... A new item has suddenly appeared in Software Update, called "Performance Update"...

All it says is:. "This update addresses intermittent hard drive-related stalls reported by a small number of customers."

I guess only time will tell if it is an actual fix for this thread's issue...

yep

Great!

Hopefully I can get back to my life now instead of obsessing over beach balls and itunes stutters all day.

If I see beach balls after this I may just toss my MBP out the window.

Actually i got so used to the constant beach ball, I just can't imagine it to be gone forever. We'll see!

Wow, I'd started to assume this would never get a fix. Fingers crossed that this is now fixed.

Feedback people please.