Q: Firmware update and SATA II hard drive

+They finally said if I take the Apple Care, I won't have to pay the $100. When I went back to the store, they asked me again for the $100. Got mad, spent a couple of hours with Apple at the phone because I refuse to pay anything for a problem they are responsible for never letting me know that I will have to pay, make me buy a useless AppleCare, and not fixing a problem well know over Internet because of a bug.+

RV:

*First of all Apple Care is not useless. It covers software and Apple hardware for 3 years. I used it +to confirm+ and +to rectify my problem+ with my MB Pro and the 3rd party SATA // Drives.*


But let me make some general observations.

I am not aware of this issue involving 2008 MB Pros. There is an EFI 1.7 issue with the 7200 SADA // 3 GPS 3rd party HDs installed with the mid 2009 MB Pros.

From what I understand, there is no issue with these drives if installed in an Enclosure and the factory supplied HD installed in the MB Pro.

A roll back to EFI 1.6 solves the issue and allows one to use these faster 7200 RPM Drives as the boot internal drive--but likely at a 1.5 GPS speed rather than 3.0 GPS.

Exactly what works on the 2008 version is unknown to me.

What you might try is to do some investigative work and required house keeping.

"Zap" the Pram. (Start with "OptionControl+PR" keys depressed). Wait till 3 chimes are heard. Also try booting in "Safe boot" mode (Depress Shift Key upon start up) and see if it still occurs then.

Repair permissions with the system utility..

See if those works first.

If not Run the Apple Hardware Test disk with the "D key depressed.

Your issue may be related to this housekeeping rather than a drive issue--as I am not aware of this issue developing with the previous version of MB Pro. It seems to be related to the Mid 2009 version of the MB Pro--especially the ones with the SD slot.

I may be wrong in the presumption however.

I only know what worked for me--"roll back" Firmware to EFI 1.6--and install the performance update 1.0.

bobg

Here's my experience with my Mid-2009 15" 2.53GHz MBP

I updated to Firmware 1.7, and tries to install my WD Scorpio Black 320GB.
The clean installation will fail after one and half hour, and I check the amount of hard drive size after the installation failed. It only installed 300MB of data in 90 min. I RMA the hard drive back to WD, but the replacement HDD has the exact same issue.

I talked to AppleCare Product Specialist, and they say they can't do anything with 3rd party hardware, even I told him it's the firmware issue.

I brought my MBP to two Apple Stores, told them the same story and ask them if they can replace the machine or reflash the firmware. Right after I told them it's the third party HDD, they completely ignore what I have to say next, and said that they can't perform firmware flash in store, and as long as the original HDD works fine with the machine, they will not do anything about it.

I was so furious about their response. Since after all, it's the firmware that cause the problem. I have never heard of HDD compatibility problems, and now Apple just tries to completely ignore this issue.

I am on the verge of smashing this crippled machine.

Apple only has so many products to maintain, and yet they can't fix this simple problem.

If they keep ignoring consumers complaints, I wish they lose all their market share.

Microsoft is willing to listen to consumers when building up Windows 7, why can't Apple do this. Is this what happen to companies when they start to grow and gain popularities?

-Sorry if this message is way too emotional and inappropriate for the forum.

I have the same computer and also bought the same WD hard drive and have no problem with it. You could try the EFI 1.6 rollback. It will not be slower with that drive even though it limits the SATA bus to 1.5 Gbps. I found the WD drive too noisy so now just use it as a backup.

Right now I am using a SuperTalent 256GB SSD but I have to use the EFI 1.6 rollback firmware to get it to work, but it works great. Even with my SSD the 3.0 Gbps afforded by the EFI 1.7 would not make much difference and virtually none with a standard HDD.

I am investigating this issue since year. I posted a couple of times on this discussion board. I already tried everything, I even exchanged the hard drive by the same one under warranty and switch from Leopard to Snow Leopard.
However, this issue keeps coming back.
There is no firmware update, but all the issues are similar.
I got an error in Apple Hardware test, but nothing with TechTool Pro. The error is not clear, but it could be anything related from the hardrive to the sata controler on the motherboard. It confirms that something is wrong between my mac and this hardrive. As soon as I can, I will try this test with my hardrive on another mac book pro, but older. I bet there won't be any error (and the hard drive can't be twice defective, and with exactly the same issue. Note that everything works fine under bootcamp)

As I said in my post, I ask them to flash my firmware back to 1.6 in Apple Store (both of them), but they say they can't do that and want me to call AppleCare to do it.

That's another reason why I'm so furious. As long as I told them I use a third party HDD, all they do is to try to rush me out of the store.

Here is a file you can "Restore" to a freshly formatted SD card, or to a freshly formatted external hard drive. Then boot from that drive or card by holding the Option key during startup to select it. This will roll back your firmware to 1.6.
Just right click and "Download As..."
http://members.all2easy.net/gregory/EFI%201.6%20rollback.dmg

Amdrocks said:

+*I brought my MBP to two Apple Stores, told them the same story and ask them if they can replace the machine or reflash the firmware. Right after I told them it's the third party HDD, they completely ignore what I have to say next, and said that they can't perform firmware flash in store, and as long as the original HDD works fine with the machine, they will not do anything about it.+*

*+I was so furious about their response. Since after all, it's the firmware that cause the problem. I have never heard of HDD compatibility problems, and now Apple just tries to completely ignore this issue.+*

Suggestion:

If you put the HD in the MB Pro yourself, then remove it and then put in the factory supplied HD. Then ask them to roll back the Firemware to 1.6. They will ask why--and tell them it is an issue with future drives.

Then when this is done, the computer will work well either way with the factory supplied HD. It should take only 15 mis or so to do this.

Then when you get it home, or take it to the dealer from where you purchased the larger HD, then have them remove the factory supplied HD and then reinstall the larger HD. Now it will work OK if it the computer is back rolled to EFI 1.6.

Alternately take the computer to the Apple store with the no HD in the computer. Then have start the computer from an external HD and back roll the FW to 1.6. Once that is done, then take the computer home and or to your dealer and have them reinstall the larger HD. Then the 3rd party HD should work OK.

This is what the Apple Store did for me--but they removed the HD and back rolled it to EFI 1.6 and reinstalled the HD. Before I left the Store, I double check that it would boot up OK. It took all of 15 to mins to do this. and I left as a happy camper.


What you should tell Apple is the HD worked OK with the EFI 1.6--and it was they who "pushed the EFI 1.7" on to you and you installed it like you would do with any apple software update. In my case it clearly locked up the computer not once--but 3 different times.

The fact that your Apple Hard Ware Test disk indicated a problem--is enough to show that to Apple. See if you can print out the report.

Ask them to check the site or the Apple Tech Notes on this issue. It is clearly an Apple issue as I bet the HD works in external enclosure--but not as an internal 3 rd party HD wit EFI 1.7.

bobg

Thanks for the reply and suggestion.

When I walked into Apple Store, the original HDD was installed and can boot up normally.
However, when I clearly state the issue to them and ask them if they can rollback the firmware back to 1.6, they say they can't do that in store and I have to phone AppleCare.
I also told them about this thread and that there's 123 pages worth of people giving complaints. Before I finish my statement, the Genius cut me off and told me that online complaint does not constitute for a valid argument.
They basically told me that as long as the computer works with the original specs., they will not do anything to fix it.

But I'll give a try with the Apple Hardware Test.
Apple has to address this problem ASAP.
Firmware 1.6 rollback is not really a solution.

It seems that your local Apple Store doesn't have a clue.

I had my firmware rolled back way back when the rollback tool first became available. My local Apple Store called me to say the tool was just made available by Apple to do this, and scheduled me to come and have it done. When I got there, the guy I spoke with at the Genius Bar didn't know what I was talking about, so I asked him to check with his boss (the guy who had called me). Once that was straightened out, he took my machine into the back… but then returned after a few seconds to ask me what the problem I was having was. I started describing it to him, and he interrupted with something along the lines of, "so it's with a 3rd party hard drive… good, I just wanted to make sure we were doing the right thing."

So, from that experience, I would guess that the release notes for the roll back tool itself specify that it is to be used when people are having problems with 3rd party hard drives.

It seems that your Apple Store is the one who needs to call Apple Support to figure out how to do their job. Back when the tool was new, I could understand Genius Bars not knowing about it yet; but this is well after the fact and there is really no excuse for ignorance now.

-------

That said; the firmware roll back is not an acceptable fix in my book. It's a band-aid until they release a proper remedy. Until such a time, my MacBook Pro remains crippled in that the supposedly top-of-the-line machine I paid good money for will become obsolete (has become already, if we're honest) much faster than such a machine ought to by not being able to take advantage of the most significant of performance upgrades, solid state drives (despite the fact that the underlaying hardware platform fully supports it).

fishbert:



You are absolutely right!



The "roll back" to EFI 1.6 is a band aid.



However, it works with these 3 rd party HDs which are SADA // drives with 7200 RPM. I surmise the EFI 1.6 gets them to apparently work at 5400 RPM, while the EFI 1.7 is suppose to allow the faster speed. Problem is it does not work reliably on all the 3rd party drives. It did work not on my Seagate HD. The key indicator is the last suffix "G".



ST9500420ASG



From what I gather it does not work on the WD 7200 RPM HDs either. There may be other ones as well.



Now the issue is the difference is the speed of the drive only has a very marginal difference in the MB Pro performance from what I can determine from these postings. This is apparently why Apple is reluctant to resolve this issue with more effort on their art when there is an acceptable solution in effect now.



What should be done as a fix is to "roll back" the firmware to EFI 1.6 and install the Performance Update 1.0.



This worked very well for me 3 different times.



Apple decided this is a workable solution rather than try to replace the Logic boards which are not the answer either.



bobg

Robert Gulyas wrote:
However, it works with these 3 rd party HDs which are SADA // drives with 7200 RPM. I surmise the EFI 1.6 gets them to apparently work at 5400 RPM, while the EFI 1.7 is suppose to allow the faster speed. Problem is it does not work reliably on all the 3rd party drives. It did work not on my Seagate HD. The key indicator is the last suffix "G".

Bobg, just wanted to clarify that SATA I / SATA II is a completely different specification than 5400 / 7200 RPM.
A hard drive can be 5400 RPM yet function at either SATA I or SATA II bus speeds (ie my 5k500.b is always a 5400RPM drive, but I can change it from SATA I to SATA II via the Hitachi feature tool)

+Bobg, just wanted to clarify that SATA I / SATA II is a completely different specification than 5400 / 7200 RPM.+

+A hard drive can be 5400 RPM yet function at either SATA I or SATA II bus speeds (ie my 5k500.b is always a 5400RPM drive, but I can change it from SATA I to SATA II via the Hitachi feature tool)+



katmeef:



Sorry--I stand corrected.



I do understand now that there is the difference between the 1.5 gbs and the 3.0 gbs HDs. I thought that were the same difference that allows them to rotate at 5400 vs 7200 RPM.



I suspect the drives can be modified to run at slower speed?



Please clarify if you can. I do not want to add more confusion to this large thread than already has occurred.



I just know what has worked for me 3 times with my 500 GB internal Seagate 3rd HD listed below:.



465.76 GB

Model: ST9500420ASG

Revision: 0002SDM1



bobg

A 7200 RPM drive will run at full speed on SATA 1.5. A 7200 RPM drive will not saturate the bandwidth of SATA 1.5. SATA 3.0 can handle data at much faster rates... but that does not mean that SATA 1.5 is a hindrance to standard hard drives (and will not likely be so at any time in the near future unless hybrid drives become more popular). The biggest problem is with SSDs. While they currently only occasionally saturate the SATA 1.5 bandwidth... each new generation is offering significant speed improvements. Hard drives are somewhat limited due to the need to have physical moving parts inside. As current SSDs easily reach the limits of SATA 1.5... it's safe to say the next generation will easily surpass the nearly legacy speeds of SATA 1.5. So this doesn't present a major issue for most right now... but it is a significant hindrance for future upgradability.

JoeyR is correct. At current time SATA I is not limiting your hard drive. The only reason you need SATA II is for future SSDs and for current SSDs to a very small degree. In fact, My 5400 RPM Hitachi benchmarks faster using Xbench when I am using the *EFI 1.6* rather than the 1.7 firmware. In other words, _EFI 1.7 slows down my hard drive through put_. It does not help, it hinders.

And also, to clarify once and for all, if you have a 7200 RPM drive you cannot change that rotational speed. The same applies to a 5400 or 4800 or 10,000 RPM drive. The rotational speed is fixed. You don't change it with firmware to the computer or to the drive.

I think people are getting too involved in the numbers with an idea that bigger means better. My 5400 Hitachi drive is almost as fast, as measured with Xbench, as my brand new 7200 WD drive. The 'numbers' would suggest the WD drive should be 33% faster. In reality it is less than 15% faster. Not worth the extra noise that it brings along with it especially since the stock 5400 RPM Hitachi is nearly silent.

It was pretty clear to me after our exchange on page 122 (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2054387&start=1816), that not everyone here is familiar with hard drive specifications and what they all mean. But that disconnect was (and still is) really beside the point, so I've ignored it.

What we all seem to agree on, is that EFI 1.7 causes problems for some people, while EFI 1.6 does not. I don't see any new information here.