Apple Event: May 7th at 7 am PT

Looks like no one’s replied in a while. To start the conversation again, simply ask a new question.

Mac Pro Classic, Snow Leopard, and 64 bit kernel

Hello, and thanks in advance for your thoughts and your help. A question was brought up on the macrumors forums about the shortcomings of the 2006 mac pro. Basically someone said that he would not get a used 2006 mac pro because "it can't boot into Leopard in 64-bit." I asked him what he meant and he said that he didn't think it was "true" 64 bit because in his system info it says "64 bit kernel and extensions - no". I poked around a little bit and found a good article:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/28/roadto_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bit_to_thekernel.html

detailing that Leopard runs on a 32 bit kernel, mainly because every extension must be 64 bit in order to run on a 64 bit kernel, and that Leopard can run 64 bit applications even though it runs on a 32 bit kernel. The article states that Snow Leopard will be the first operating system on a 64 bit kernel.

Now, my question. Since my Mac Pro runs on 32 bit EFI instead of the new EFI 64, will I be able to have a similar 64 bit Snow Leopard experience? Will my EFI on my antique mac pro really limit the 64 bit Snow Leopard experience? Will my aluminum macbook be able to "do" more with snow leopard than my mac pro? and lastly, I am currently running the Radeon 4870 in my mac pro, since the guys at ATI snuck the 32 bit EFI onto the card as well as the 64 bit EFI, somehow. I wonder what's going to happen with all this when Snow Leopard drops.

Mac Pro 2.66GHz, Alu Macbook 2.0 GHz, Mac OS X (10.5.7)

Posted on Jul 11, 2009 3:30 PM

Reply
27 replies

Aug 11, 2009 9:02 PM in response to Bozz_2006

It would appear that Apple has decided that 64 bit kernel is available only on 64 bit CPUs, with 64 bit chipset, with 64 EFI. Your Mac Pro, and your Aluminum Macbook do not satisfy all these conditions.

Ironically, you can work around all these issues and install third party 64 bit OS with 64 kernel, like Windows or Linux. So, it's a real shame that Apple's own OS won't install with 64 kernel on these machines.

Aug 13, 2009 7:53 AM in response to The hatter

This is an interesting topic to me. From what I've read, and I may not be getting it correct, the EFI is used only during the boot process so that it needn't be a limitation on 64-bit kernel usage. I have seen some speculation that it is a driver issue for the older Mac Pro. If one runs from terminal "sysctl hw.cpu64bit_capable" the response is 1 (yes).

Since the 4870 is supported in SL, 64-bit kernel, the $64 question is, will a Mac Pro with the 4870 installed run SL in 64-bit kernel mode? Or is it a more fundamental chip set issue?

I have also seen comments that the difference between 32-bit and 64-bit kernel operations is minimal and that either kernel will support 64-bit applications.

(I was heading for a 4870 in my MacPro1,1 to use the 24" LED display but got cold feet when thinking about the up-coming SL.)

I guess we'll have to wait for the release to find out.

(Feel free to correct any misunderstandings I have.)

Aug 14, 2009 10:12 PM in response to JohnZonie

Netkas.org states that "64-bit kernel works only on macs with 64-bit efi, this is limitation set by Apple, technicaly 64-bit kernel can be launched by 32-bit efi just fine. Apple disabled 64-bit kernel support for macbook with 64-bit efi and intel graphics."

http://netkas.org/?p=127

I believe that Snow Leopard probably will not run 64-bit on early MacPros. However, this is not a technological limitation, but rather Apple's restriction. The URL above provides instructions on how to edit /Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/com.apple.Boot.plist to allow for 64-bit kernel. Perhaps this might work for those of us with early-model MacPros? Still, I am just dumbfounded that I can run 64-bit Windows OS, but not 64-bit MacOS on my early MacPro.

Aug 20, 2009 8:58 AM in response to H00NER

Has apple officially stated whether they will support 64 bit snow leopard on early mac pros? This all seems to be speculation. I'd like to know for sure, seeing as how I just traded in my last generation powermac (a perfectly reliable, solid machine) for a first generation mac pro so I can run a 64 bit version of the software that I use when snow leopard comes out.

Aug 20, 2009 11:11 AM in response to insert_user_name

And it falls on the definition of supported. All? fully? will some feature not be? will it even matter?

This is just the ground floor on building future support for more address space, and unless you had 3 x 2GB video graphic cards, applications will still run 64-bit. Nothing I read showed that a 'mere' 32-bit kernel was an issue.

Windows probably has more experience with 64-bit drivers and OS, 32-bit apps run fine in WOW64, over 3 yrs for driver development.

Catch-22 - you need a foundation to build out your bridge, or build upper floors on a tower or skyscrapper.

Was your G5 on borrowed time? will apps magically be ready? or is this ground floor.

Aug 20, 2009 12:38 PM in response to kaz-k

F.Y.I. I believe its only 4 gigs of ram which you need to have more of in order to utilize 64 bit processing, not 32. 2 to the power 32 works out to be about 4 gigs.

Furthermore, 64 bit processing maxxes out at about 16 exabytes of ram (this is 2 to the power 62 bytes).

32 bit does not mean 32 gigs of ram, nor does 64 bit mean 64 gigs of ram.

Aug 25, 2009 3:18 AM in response to kaz-k

The following is a link to a program that allows you to select whether you want to start the MacOS X Kernel in 32-bit or in 64-bit mode (the setting might be ignored on MacBooks, depending on how Apple implements the restriction). I'm anxious to test this on my early MacPro when Snow Leopard "pounces" (sorry, but every other blog/webpage/newspaper has been making similar lame puns) on Friday.

http://www.ahatfullofsky.comuv.com/English/Programs/SMS/SMS.html

Aug 26, 2009 6:59 AM in response to Bozz_2006

I think part of the confusion is that the original Mac Pro does not enable 64 bit under Boot Camp. If you look at:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_pro/stats/mac-pro-quad-2.66-specs.html

The original Mac Pro is 64 bit in every way. Regular Leopard is not in the Finder. So there is still a chance you may get 64 bit processing on Snow Leopard even with the original Mac Pro.

From the above link:

Each of two Xeon 5150 "Woodcrest" Dual-Core processors have two independent processor "cores" with 4 MB of level 2 cache per processor. It also features a 128-bit SSE vector engine, 64-bit data paths and registers. Also offered, via custom configuration, were two 2 GHz Dual Core Xeon 5130 processors for US$300 less, two 3 GHz Dual Core Xeon 5160 processors for US$800 more, and starting April 4, 2007, two 3 GHz Quad Core Xeon X5365 (Clovertown) processors for US$1500 more.


I would not rely on AppleInsider as a resource. It is a rumor site.

Aug 27, 2009 4:41 AM in response to insert_user_name

A 32-bit PAE kernel will run 64-bit and has been doing so since Tiger (command line 64-bit). Leopard extended the 64-bit functionality even further. Snow Leopard, from what I have read, extends this even further to the extent of a 64-bit kernel.

A 64-bit kernel must have 64-bit extensions (kexts) from applications to run.

I don't work for Apple and have no inside knowledge of how Apple are approaching the transition to 64-bit so can only offer my own conclusions, but based on Microsoft's offerings of XP-64 and Vista 64, there was a slight issue (understatement of the decade) with driver support on third party hardware and software running under 64-bit, to the extent a lot of people are still using XP and those using Vista (oops. . . they dropped the 'V' word . . .erm . . Windows not XP but newer) are still running 32-bit versions.

I have a test machine running Vis . . . erm. . . Windows current version 64-bit. IE8 64 can not display flash based items properly, as Adobe have not released a 64-bit Flash player plug in for IE8-64 - so you have to run the 32-bit version of IE8 to load flash based content. So those saying everything on Vi. . . the other camps' side is fully 64-bit are mistaken. They are not. Issues still abound - Adobe have had many years to make a 64-bit Flash plug in for XP 64 and Vi . . oh you get the point 64, yet they haven't. Presumably because more people are still running 32-bit variations of the OS and so there is little or no major demand for 64-bit development (yet). This may change with the adoption of Windows 7.

It makes sense to me, to cut down the risks of suddenly unusable peripherals or software to end users, to default Snow Leopard to a 32-bit (PAE) kernel which will allow 64-bit applications (which do not require 64-bit extensions) to run and access the full memory installed on an end users system.

Imagine the furore if Snow Leopard installed by default a 64-bit kernel on all machines and suddenly all your third party apps and devices no longer worked? End users wouldn't be too happy.

Once third party vendors have developed 64-bit drivers and applications, the switch to pure 64-bit kernel operation will be made for systems capable of supporting full 64-bit.

Those that don't support full 64-bit will continue to gain performance improvements through 32-bit PAE.

(Oh it's so easy to get confused as you get older. I hope this makes sense - my head is numb now).

Here's what MacFixIt say about 32 and 64 bit:

"Snow Leopard both 32 and 64-bit?

Unlike previous versions of OS X, in Snow Leopard Apple has finally provided a true 64-bit operating system from the kernel up through the kernel extensions and system processes. However, in reality Snow Leopard is provided in both 32-bit and 64-bit flavors and loads the 32-bit kernel by default, so why would Apple do this after advertising 64-bit capabilities?

The first reason is application compatibility. While 64-bit apps will run on a 32-bit kernel, and 32-bit apps will run on a 64-bit kernel, the "bitness" of the kernel will limit what kernel extensions can be loaded: a 64-bit kernel can only load 64-bit extensions, and a 32-bit kernel can only load 32-bit extensions. Most applications do not have their own kernel extensions they use, but a few rely on them for functionality. For instance, VMWare and Parallels install kernel extensions to provide network environments to the virtual machines, which in their current 32-bit only versions will not load on a 64-bit kernel. As such, if you load a 64-bit kernel you will get an error when trying to run Windows from within the Mac OS.

The second reason for loading a default 32-bit kernel is that some of the first Intel Macs were released with 32-bit Core Duo and Core Solo processors. Even though the requirements for Snow Leopard are an Intel Mac, these early Intel Macs will not run a 64-bit kernel but will run other intel-optimized code. These processors will also only run 32-bit versions of applications so any that do not support 32-bit modes will not run."

Full MacFixIt article here: http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20090826074252596

I believe Apple know what they are doing and are implementing the 64-bit migration in a way to minimise the possible knock on effects to end users (Remember the 64-bit Windows who can't be named debacle).

I can only guess Apple don't want their end users experiencing the same situation as Microsoft created (and good on Apple for that). Panther was better and faster than Jaguar, Tiger was better and faster than Panther, Leopard was better and faster than Tiger, Snow Leopard will, I am guessing based on previous version improvements, be better and faster than Leopard (regardless of 32-bit or 64-bit kernel use - and will always be better than Windows).

So, to sum up, if you have any Intel Mac, (I'm hoping) Snow Leopard will, in all likelihood, improve the performance your Macs are already achieving, be that on a 32-bit kernel or a 64-bit kernel, 32-EFI or 64-EFI.

Roll on Friday!!!!!!!! What time is my local Apple Store opening?

Mac Pro Classic, Snow Leopard, and 64 bit kernel

Welcome to Apple Support Community
A forum where Apple customers help each other with their products. Get started with your Apple ID.