Previous 1 2 Next 15 Replies Latest reply: Oct 11, 2009 4:42 PM by famini
Arnaud Mondit Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
Hi,

I am curently using a Dension Gateway 100 to connect my iPhone 3GS to my car audio system. It's the model with the new cradle compatible with USB charging for the iPhone 3G/3GS / Touch 2G.

However, I do have a charging issue with my iPhone 3GS (running OS 3.0) that I suppose is a software one:
When I plug the iPhone in the cradle, it vibrates and briefly shows the charging icon, but then about half a second later the icon disappears (gets back to the way it is when it's not charging) and I got the 'this accessory does not support charging ...' message.

It seems that the iPhone correctly detects the USB current (the vibration and charging icon), but then it also detects the 12V current on the firewire pins, and then disables the charging altogether.

I got my iPhone to charge correcly using this accessory once or twice, by timing right the insertion into the cradle (couldn't find a pattern to reproduce though), and have no issue charging with USB on my computer, power adapter or using a iPod firewire-to-usb-charging dock adapter.

So it seems like it could be a bug in the 3.0 firmware. Could you confirm that?
Is anyone having the same issue with accessories that provide both firewire and usb charging?

Thanks.

iPhone 3GS 32GB, iPhone OS 3.0
  • modular747 Level 6 Level 6 (17,715 points)
    This isn't a bug in the 3.0 firmware. You have a hardware problem, either in the car charging system or your phone. Does this happen when you connect the phone to a computer USB port or home power adaptor? If not, it would seem to be in your car system causing a poor, and intermittent connection to the phone.
    It seems that the iPhone correctly detects the USB current (the vibration and charging icon), but then it also detects the 12V current on the firewire pins, and then disables the charging altogether.

    I'm not sure how you determined this, but your charging cradle should not be using Firewire connections to the iPhone 3GS.
  • Arnaud Mondit Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Thanks for your reply.

    I think it's not a hardware issue with the phone, as it charges correctly from usb power of a computer, power adapter, etc.

    I know that the iPhone 3GS cannot charge from firewire, only USB (like the iPhone 3G, touch 2G, nano 4G). The cradle of my car system seems to provide both (stated as iPhone 3G capable, it managed a few times to charge my 3GS and does the vibrate thing upon connection every time, so it has USB power, and it also charges (reliably) using a firewire dock power converter bought here http://www.chargeconverter.com/shop/connipod.htm , so it has firewire).

    That's why the only causes of the problem I can think of are:

    * the car system is faulty (unstable usb power, or not exacly compliant (especially regarding 2.8v/2.0v on usb data pins 25/27)). It has the latest firmware, and I dropped an email to the vendor to see what they have to say about it.

    * the charging model changed from the iPhone 3G to the iPhone 3GS (as the car system is stated 3G capable, but nothing is said about the 3GS). Not that probable IMHO

    * there is a bug in iPhone OS 3.0 that prevents the phone from being charged when both firewire and usb power are present. I'm leaning towards that issue, as when I use the firewire dock adapter linked above, it then no longer provides firewire power and works great.

    I may be wrong, but providing 5V (and 2.8/2.0v on data pins) from 12V is not that complicated. If my car system was faulty, it wouldn't charge even using the firewire dock adapter, would it?

    Thanks.
  • ShadyMac Level 4 Level 4 (1,250 points)
    It is a hardware issue but not hardware in the sense that your Dension system is faulty or the iPhone is faulty...
    With the move from 2G to 3G the 30 PIN connector configuration changed...this meant that 2G "compatible" accessories either no longer worked as designed or at all when plugged into a 3G iPhone...
    Ex: BOSE Sound Dock Series I paired with 3G had lots of issues, BOSE released the Series II with an updated PIN connector on their device and alas all was resolved with a 3G plugged into it...
    Well with the 3Gs the 30 PIN configuration again changed...this was in "part" due to the fact that Apple now allows 3rd party developers to build apps that can communicate with the iPhone through that plugged in accessory...
    Lastly I checked the Dension website under their compatibility tab and when you Select Phone and then Apple...only 2G and 3G show to be compatible according to their specs...
    What are you seeing that shows 3Gs to be fully compatible???
  • Arnaud Mondit Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    ShadyMac wrote:
    What are you seeing that shows 3Gs to be fully compatible???


    Well, I said :
    Arnaud Mondit wrote:
    (as the car system is stated 3G capable, but nothing is said about the 3GS).


    Also, Dension is not known for its speed updating its information. The fact that the 3GS isn't on the list doesn't implicate that it shouldn't work (neither that it should work, BTW).

    ShadyMac wrote:
    With the move from 2G to 3G the 30 PIN connector configuration changed...this meant that 2G "compatible" accessories either no longer worked as designed or at all when plugged into a 3G iPhone.


    This was due to the firewire charging support being dropped. Nothing to do with the pin configuration being changed (which AFAK didn't, but could be wrong, I don't have access to official technical data).

    Also,
    ShadyMac wrote:
    Well with the 3Gs the 30 PIN configuration again changed.


    Maybe, I don't have access to technical data to back that up or down. That would be odd, as accessory vendors would then to have to ship different accessories for 3G and 3GS.
    Also, we are looking here at the USB and firewire pins. I'm pretty sure the USB pins haven't changed (otherwise every usb cable or usb adapter wouldn't work/charge any more, which isn't true). As for the firewire pins, Apple may have recalled them for another use, but that wouldn't prevent the iPhone from charging from USB when there's something present in the FW pins (unless there's a software bug, or a policy in place to prevent it).

    Also, to put that in perspective, aside from charging, every other aspect of the car audio system works correctly with the 3GS (steering wheel remote control, audio playback, dock detection on the iPhone, even track/album names on the radio unit when in Dension Gateway mode (but then displays "iPod Accessory" mode on the iPhone display, which is to be expected).
  • ShadyMac Level 4 Level 4 (1,250 points)
    1) I was reading your statement "t's the model with the new cradle compatible with USB charging for the iPhone 3G/3GS / Touch 2G." This sounded like you were under the impression that the "system" was 3Gs compatible...
    2) Their speed for updating has nothing to do with anything... it is a well known fact that through the progression from 2G to 3G to 3Gs there have been numerous 3rd party accessories that don't work as designed or at all with the newest model device until the 3rd party accessory company updates their hardware to be compatible with that PIN config change on iPhone...but this does NOT mean every 3rd party accessory began to have bugs...just some depending on their configuration...
    3) The 30 PIN connector was not changed only to remove the firewire charge...the internal configuration of the 30 PIN connection also changed for other reasons...again evidence found with my BOSE sound Dock series I vs Series II text in my OP.
    4) Why would it be odd to change a configuration again with 3Gs...that statement DOES NOT mean that ALL accessories made for 2G or 3G will automatically be incompatible...That was your assumption of that statement
    5) Your other arguments are not even needed...at no time did I state or imply that the 30 PIN change would "brick" the accessory and stop any function of it...You seem to not want a reasonable reply since you just want to find false faults in the posters reply to your issue...
  • w7ox Level 4 Level 4 (2,385 points)
    ShadyMac wrote:
    that statement DOES NOT mean that ALL accessories made for 2G or 3G will automatically be incompatible


    This is absolutely true. I have a Griffin in-car charger (cigarette lighter type) which works with my 2G (original) phone and with my 3GS phone.

    Phil
  • Arnaud Mondit Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    I'm sorry if I sounded harsh or anything, or trying to find false faults in your arguments. That was not my intent, and if you have any backed up information to contradict me, I'd be more than happy to read it.

    But, when you look at the dock pinout (http://pinouts.ru/PortableDevices/ipod_pinout.shtml I know, it's not an official document and does not states anything about the 3GS, but it's still interesting to have a look to) there are a few things to note:

    Pins 3/4 are for audio line-out. Since my 3GS does play music back to the car radio, my guess is they haven't changed.

    Pins 11/12/13 are for serial communication. Since my 3GS does support the Apple Accessory Protocol that uses serial communication (it supports remote control from the steering wheel remote controls, does communicate track/album names to the car radio (see pin 21) when the car system is in "Gateway Mode") my guess is that they haven't changed either.

    Pin 21 is for accessory indicator. Its the one that triggers the warning message stating that the plugged accessory is incompatible with iPhones, or triggers the "iPod Accessory" mode with serial communication (see pins 11/12/13). Maybe Apple introduced new resisting values to manage 3GS specific accessories, but everything points to the fact that old ones are still supported (as the 3GS goes into "iPod Accessory" mode when the car system is in "Gateway Mode" and communicates correctly track/album names through the Apple Accessory Protocol, or that the volume gets locked into "Dock connection" mode when plugged in, etc.)

    Pins 16/23/25/27 for USB charging. Since the 2G/3G USB charging adapters are still working with the 3GS, my guess is that they haven't changed.

    Finally, for the 3rd party accessories that don't work as designed or at all going from 2G to 3G to 3GS (such as your BOSE SoundDock), the only issues I'm aware of are the firewire charging issue, and the "accessory not made for iphone" message (which is due to the fact that the accessory has not been shielded for radio interferences, thus not having a resisting value on pin 21 that relates to an designed-for-iPhone accessory). There is also the issue of the chip in the video-out cable, but that concerns the migration from iPod 5G to iPhone, not 3G to 3GS, and my car system isn't video cappable, so it's not applicable here. But If you have any information of other bugs affecting these devices, feel free to point me to them.

    That is (AFAIK, again) what happened with the BOSE SoundDock Series I vs Series II : the I was charging via firewire only and had a resisting value on pin 21 that registered it as an iPod accessory (thus the warning message on iPhones, both 2G and 3G), whereas the II has USB charging and a radio frequency shielding, so it is authorized to register itself to an iPhone as an iPhone accessory (different resisting value on pin 21, thus no warning message).

    But I guess we're going slightly out of topic here, which is that when my accessory is plugged in (and provides both firewire and usb charging), the iPhone initially detects the usb charging (thus the vibration and charging icon) but soon after loses it as it seems it detects also firewire charging.
    One might say that this is due to the 3GS detecting a now-unsupported resisting value on pin 21. But when I use the firewire-to-usb charging adapter (link in my previous post) that passes through signal from the other pins, it then has the same resisting value on pin 21, but now only usb charging (no FW) and does not loses charging as it happened without the adapter. *That's what points me to either a hardware firewire-to-USB power conversion problem, or a software bug in my iPhone.*

    Sorry for the long post, I hope I haven't lost you (or an Apple Software/Hardware Engineer reading it).

    Have a nice day.
  • ShadyMac Level 4 Level 4 (1,250 points)
    No need to be sorry, but thank you... I have no ill feelings

    Don't worry you haven't lost me lol

    I'm still not entirely sure this document accurately covers all the bases on the what I called "changes" previously...It's also sounding to me like not just 30 PIN physical change but how that change talks back to the OS... I could certainly be wrong...

    My main reason for thinking that is this...I had a original iPhone, then the 3G and now the 3Gs...when I had my original iPhone I purchased several 3rd party items, a FM transmitter to play audio over my car, a car charger of course and in home player...all from Ebay...

    Once I moved to 3G...only 1 of the 3rd party items still kind of worked...the in home player itme (however, it had interference when 3G was plugged in like the Bose Sound Dock series I) I don't even remember the brands at this point...but both the car charger and FM transmitter both failed to work properly with the 3G...

    The car charger wouldn't even register that I'd plugged it in and of course didn't charge either...

    the FM transmitter no longer charged the iPhone but did play the audio which seems to be the same issue you're having with your Dension system...

    The fact that this document doesn't seem to show any changes to the PINs or resistances assigned to some main items like power and accessories, yet my two 3rd party accessories certainly didn't work is kicker...

    Now the million dollar question...since the loss of FW charging from 2G to 3G seemed to be the only main known change and now with 3Gs we don't have confirmed data...it begs the question...what are they not telling us???

    From the issue you're having I would agree now it really seems more to be an OS issue and maybe not the 30 PIN...or maybe a combination of the two...
  • Arnaud Mondit Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Well, the issues you're facing with your accessories are in my opinion related to the firewire charging thing being dropped : as the phone no longer register what happens to the firewire pins, it couldn't detect your car charger (which might be a dummy adapter that only routes the 12v from the car to the firewire power pins), or charge using your FM transmitter (that this time, aside from the 12v firewire charging, registers as an accessory as it need to tell the phone to get audio to the line-out pins).

    But that might tell us something. As the phone no longer registers what happens on the firewire pins (as your car charger doesn't even triggers a warning message), my assumption that my 3GS phone drops charging from usb as soon as it detects the firewire power might be wrong (since it cannot detect it). It might be an issue with a resisting value on pin 21? Or maybe the 3GS is capable of detecting what happens on the firewire pins? Maybe Apple's using them for something else? We get back to the million dollar question ...

    I've got a response from Dension saying that they haven't fully tested the 3GS with the system yet, and that I should get back to them in 3-4 weeks.

    Also, I tried to plug in a 3G (3.0), and it did charge immediately. I guess it's either luck (I did manage to also get my 3GS charging a few times in the past, I guess I'll have to test that further) or a specific issue with the 3GS (seems more and more so).
  • Juul1977 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    So... Fortunatly it seems I'm not the only one anymore with this problem. It is very annoying. I use the Dension Gateway now for several years in my car. First I had a normal iPod, which funcioned perfectly (charging and sound), then I got the iPhone 3G but it didn't charge (due to the different charge protocol usb/firewire), so I had to buy a new Dension Gateway for about 200 euros, now my 3G was stolen and I bought a new 3GS and... It doesn't charge my iPhone -again-.

    I only need the Dension for 2 purposes, charging my iPhone and playback my music. What do you all think, do I/we have to wait and buy a new Dension again?

    I'm not very technical but to me it seems also more a software problem rather than a hardware problem.

    Is there anyone at Apple who can give an explanation why this problem comes up? Something must have been changed in the 3GS.

    I have also spoken to Dension today. It is an Hungarian company, the said to me that they where not able to test it yet because the 3GS is not even avaible at this time in Hungary. So it will probably take several weeks before they have an answer and probably several months before there is a solution.

    At this point I think I should blame Apple for making it impossible for third party accesory producers to develope a product that than can last one or two product updates from Apple.

    Anyway, I will bring my 12volt carcharger again for my upcoming holiday; like the old days!
  • modular747 Level 6 Level 6 (17,715 points)
    Is there anyone at Apple who can give an explanation why this problem comes up? Something must have been changed in the 3GS.

    This is a user-to-user tech support forum, and you aren't addressing Apple here.
    I'm not very technical but to me it seems also more a software problem rather than a hardware problem.

    The software is the same for the 3G and 3GS, except for the features not included in the 3G. It's never a good idea to make unsubstantiated assumptions.
  • Juul1977 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    First of all, beside comment on the comment, your comment is not very helpful. Second, I'm not adressing Apple, it was just a question on where to find the knowledge on this subject.

    This is the only thread on the internet on this particular subject. There are thousands of people who use the Dension kit so it should be better to warn people who intend to buy this equipment before they get disappointed with it.

    At this point it seems that nobody knows why the charging problem comes up with the new 3GS, after they changed the whole charging protocol from USB to Firewire with the 3G.

    So let's stick to the problem at hand and forgive my annoyance about the problem in my first comment.
  • theron.roland Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    I can provide some help here

    I have Dension GW100 16VW version with text display on the VW console

    I also have iPhone 3G, an iPhone 3Gs x 2, and an iPod touch 2'nd Gen

    iPhone 3G charges fine
    iPod touch charges fine
    iPhone 3Gs (one of them) charged fine the very first time, then never again, any of the two iPhone 3Gs' now say "charging not supported...." on screen when connected

    it's literally only the 3Gs that's not charging

    I'm hoping this can be corrected in os 3.1, but don't know...
  • theron.roland Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    any update on this with os 3.1??
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