What Sequence Setting for 4:3 Aspect Ratio?

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Level 2

165 points

What Sequence Setting for 4:3 Aspect Ratio?

Just moved up from FCE to FCS2. Do commercials for small market cable and broadcast in SD 4:3 in FCE. Now in FCP I see a sequence setting for Frame Size Aspect Ratio NTSC DV that shows 3:2 aspect. Not really clear on what this is and after pouring through the manuals and searching this forum, still don't get it.

In the end, I want normal SD 4:3 TV commercials. In FCE, it was a simple NTSC setting. Does my sequence in FCP need to be 4:3 or 3:2? Need a little education on this and can't find any explanation anywhere.

Thanks for the help.

Posted on Jul 31, 2009 5:44 PM

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Answer 1

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Jul 31, 2009 5:56 PM in response to Neil Whittey

The NTSC setting in FCE is the *DV-NTSC 48 kHz* sequence preset in FCP. That one preset is all you need to worry about.

The 3:2 thing with Pixel Aspect Ratio relates to how DV pixels are shaped. 4:3 is a bit of a misnomer at least with regards to DV or SD tape, as those formats are 720x480 or 720x486, respectively. Neither of those is truly 4:3 but that's what we all use (when we talk "4:3 SD").

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Answer 2

Jul 31, 2009 6:09 PM in response to hanumang

Yes, whenever you see 3:2 mentioned in FCP, it really means 4:3.

Unforgivably confusing, but that's the way it is (and that's the way it was).

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Answer 3

Neil Whittey Author

Level 2

165 points

Jul 31, 2009 6:52 PM in response to Denis Murphy

Okay. Doesn't make sense, but I guess a lot of this works that way.

So what I see in the canvas for an aspect ratio is not what will end up on TV, correct? Had me concerned.

And as far as outputting it to a QT MOV for the local cable company (they have no specifications and have always accepted a MOV from FCE), just use the Export>Quicktime Movie>DV NTSC 48 (assuming my sequence is 23.98)? Or Current Settings if my sequence timeline were 29.97?

Thanks for the explanation. Wish that were in some obvious spot in the manuals! Might be, but hard to find.

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Answer 4

Aug 1, 2009 11:06 AM in response to Neil Whittey

720x480 (3:2) is the pixel resolution of NTSC DV, but those pixels are rectangular, not square, so the resulting image is 4:3.

That's why the NTSC square pixel equivalent is 720x540 (4:3)

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Answer 5

Neil Whittey Author

Level 2

165 points

Aug 1, 2009 11:48 AM in response to Denis Murphy

Very Helpful! Thanks. If I submit the commercial to the cable company via an uploaded QT MOV, and I used a 23.98 timeline, do I need to change the export settings to somehow put it back to 29.97? When I export via Quicktime Movie using Current Settings, the resulting MOV shows a 24 FPS in the inspector. Is that a problem or will it resolve itself on their end?

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Answer 6

Andy Neil

Level 4

3,795 points

Aug 1, 2009 11:50 AM in response to Neil Whittey

The confusion is understandable, and exists because of DV. The DV frame size is 720x480. However, standard definition NTSC is actually 720x486. There are 6 more horizontal lines in SD than in DV.

If you reduce the frame sizes you'll find that 720x480 is a 3:2 ratio and 720x486 reduces to a 4:3 ratio. That is why they are shown as such: FCP is simply being accurate.

Even though NTSC SD has 6 more horizontal lines than DV, they are typically used interchangeably because those lines appear below the viewable TV image so it's unnoticable.

If you were to take your DV footage and edit it out to Digibeta tape, it would record 720x486, but the extra lines would just be lines of black on the top and bottom of the frame added by your capture card or by the digibeta deck. The point is, that it would not matter one way or another to a broadcaster or person watching at home.

Andy

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Answer 7

Neil Whittey Author

Level 2

165 points

Aug 2, 2009 8:58 AM in response to Neil Whittey

Seem to have encountered a problem. I assumed that to convert my 23.98 sequence to 29.97 I could use Export>Quicktime Movie, then use the DV NTSC 48 setting instead of the Current Settings option. However, the exported QT drops out the last couple shots of the commercial, a couple jpg's prepared in PhotoShop as NTSC 4:3 stills. Every other type of export doesn't have that problem (Current Settings, Export>Quicktime Conversion, H264, etc.).

Am I doing something wrong? Making the wrong selection for changing from 23.98=>29.97? Should, perhaps, the jpeg's be brought into the sequence NOT in the NTSC-corrected format?

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Answer 8

Andy Neil

Level 4

3,795 points

Aug 2, 2009 10:22 AM in response to Neil Whittey

What format is your source? I would never export out of FCP in that manner to achieve a frame rate conversion.

There are a couple of ways to change your footage from 23.98 to 29.97. The easiest I feel, is to select all the clips in your 23.98 sequence using CMD+A. Then copy (CMD+C),create a new 29.97 sequence and paste (CMD+V) those clips into your new sequence. Render and export a Quicktime Movie, Self-Contained.

However, I'm curious if you're shooting in HD based on your 23.98 frame rate. If you are, then you should be using a better SD sequence than DV which is 4:1:1 color sub-sampling. You may be throwing away half of your color information by working in that format.

Andy

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Answer 9

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Aug 2, 2009 10:49 AM in response to Neil Whittey

Neil Whittey wrote:
I assumed that to convert my 23.98 sequence to 29.97 I could use Export>Quicktime Movie, then use the DV NTSC 48 setting instead of the Current Settings option.

Yeah, that it doesn't work as you'd assume. 🙂

If you're looking to convert 23.98 to 29.97, follow this post by Waymen to learn how to add the proper 3:2 pulldown using Compressor (version 2.x or later). It will take some time, but it gets things done properly.

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Answer 10

Neil Whittey Author

Level 2

165 points

Aug 2, 2009 11:00 AM in response to Neil Whittey

What format is your source? I would never export out of FCP in that manner to achieve a frame rate conversion.

There are a couple of ways to change your footage from 23.98 to 29.97. The easiest I feel, is to select all the clips in your 23.98 sequence using CMD+A. Then copy (CMD+C),create a new 29.97 sequence and paste (CMD+V) those clips into your new sequence. Render and export a Quicktime Movie, Self-Contained.

However, I'm curious if you're shooting in HD based on your 23.98 frame rate. If you are, then you should be using a better SD sequence than DV which is 4:1:1 color sub-sampling. You may be throwing away half of your color information by working in that format.

Andy

Andy:

Using your method of copy/paste to a new 29.98 sequence solved the problem. Thanks.

What I had done to try out the new features in FCP vs. FCE was to create a 23.98 timeline (since I am shooting in SD 24pa with a DVX100A), add a Motion Master Template, add a few jpg's to the drop zones, add 3 NTSC-formatted jpg's to the end for the logos, add a Soundtrack music bed.

For future commercials, will likely be shooting 24pa footage, so wanted to figure out working in a 23.98 sequence. Just had not understood how to get it back to 29.98 for the cable company and broadcast stations. Your advice (copy to new sequence) makes it simple. Hopefully based on this info, I am still on the right track to accomplish my goal. I want to get the 24p look for some clients, but deliver the finished spots via upload to the stations' servers in a QT MOV.

If you have any other advice that would improve things, ready, willing and able to listen. Been Mac-ing since Mac Plus days, but new to FCP. Made the switch from Express with the access to 24p shooting. Thanks.

Message was edited by: Neil Whittey

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Answer 11

Neil Whittey Author

Level 2

165 points

Aug 2, 2009 2:58 PM in response to hanumang

If I am going to local broadcast (uploaded QT MOV), should I then be delivering an interlaced MOV to them? With FCE, we normally did a standard sequence in FCE, exported using QT Conversion, specified NTSC Interlaced, 4:3, Best and it seemed to end up broadcast just fine. Not sure if there was a better way we should have been doing it.

Now with FCP, there are many more choices. On this first commercial we're doing using the Motion Template, jpgs, etc., it was done in a 23.98 timeline for no particular reason other than to get used to using it for future use where we had shot 24pa footage with the DVX100A. Based on Andy's suggestion, I copied and pasted the spot into a 29.97 sequence. But am I correct in assuming that instead of just doing an Export>Quicktime Movie>Current Settings that I should instead use Quicktime conversion to go to interlaced before uploading the spot to the local stations?

And based on the thread by Waymem, if we use 24pa footage that has the pulldown removed during capture and then edited in a 23.98 sequence, do I then need to use his method in Compressor to add the pulldown back before sending to the cable/broadcast stations?

Sorry for all the questions. Making the switch to FCP and 24p introduces a lot of new features and issues. Thanks for the advice.

Message was edited by: Neil Whittey

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Answer 12

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Aug 2, 2009 3:23 PM in response to Neil Whittey

No need to apologize for asking questions - that's what this place if for after all. 🙂

The answer to your question is two-fold.

First, in almost all cases, standard-def broadcasters (big or small) want 29.97 interlaced files. So confirm what you're supposed to deliver. If 29.97 then, when sourced from 24p material, that usually means with 2:3:2:3 pulldown added. (In case you're not familiar with the term, that's the pulldown pattern applied when converting 24 fps films to 29.97 for broadcast/cable masters)

That brings us to the second point. Andy's method - as he mentions - is quick, but dirty. When doing the conversion within FCP (and that includes copying from a 23.98 to a 29.97 sequence, as mentioned already), Final Cut uses 2:2:2:4 pulldown. In non-film-nerd terms, it duplicates the 4th frame as the 5th frame. That's usually frowned upon since the more sensitive among us see awkward motion from frame to frame. Depending on how stringent a QC dept you're dealing with, it might even be rejected.

So, for 24p work out of FCP that needs to be 29.97 finally, I'd recommend exporting out of FCP using Current Settings (giving you a 24p master), then applying the settings detailed by Waymen in Compressor to that 24p master in order to produce a proper 29.97 file with 2:3:2:3 pulldown.

I hope I'm not adding to the confusion with too much geek-speak. 🙂

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Answer 13

Andy Neil

Level 4

3,795 points

Aug 2, 2009 5:29 PM in response to hanumang

hanumang wrote:
Final Cut uses 2:2:2:4 pulldown.

What is your basis for that? I'm by no means in expert in pulldown, and typically when I convert from 23.98 to 29.97, I use Compressor myself, but I was under the impression that in FCP you can set the pulldown to whatever you like in the playback control settings in the System Settings (SHIFT+Q). In fact, in my default settings, pulldown is set to 2:3:2:3.

On another note: I would not typically recommend my method for passing QC at a broadcast facility (although standards have really come down). The best quality thing to do is the Compressor method.

But just to address the OP's previous post, placing your 23.98 clips in a 29.97 sequence and rendering will give you an interlaced product when you export since the sequence is interlaced.

Andy

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