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narc_monkey Author

Level 1

0 points

Altered Font Spacing Crippling for Designers

Installed Snow Leopard on the first day, not a good idea. I am a graphic designer, I work in Quark and the Adobe Suite, with Suitcase Fusion 2. That said, not long (a couple hours) after I made the jump to Snow Leopard, I had work to do.

I open my first flash doc, activate Univers PostScript and I notice my whole layout has gone sour. This is because an extra bit of vertical padding is being added at the top of my text. It happens with some TrueType and OpenType fonts as well, while some others are not subject to the spacing issues. Very odd, and very menacing.

So far I have seen this as a major problem resulting in alot of reformatting on several occasions. Anyone else had this issue? Is Apple going to patch this or are there any workarounds? When they do, are all the files I have now fixed going to re-flow with poor vertical spacing in the opposite direction? When I send my collected files to people running 10.5, are my text fixes going to effect how the documents are displayed on their machines? I can't have this, I would have expected Apple of all developers to take this into consideration, especially with the volume of designers that pay the extra cash use their products.

iMac Intel 3.06GHz, Mac OS X (10.5.6)

Posted on Aug 31, 2009 12:08 PM

130 replies

Sep 21, 2009 5:18 PM in response to Kurt Lang

Well, just hearing from a 3rd party that they know about the issue doesn't seem to be enough, since the number of users that are not at ease keeps growing. Therefore, users should log their problems in the form of bugs, as that's the best channel to Apple's engineers.

Kurt Lang

Level 9

62,190 points

Sep 21, 2009 5:28 PM in response to MiguelSousa

Are you actually taking the time to read all the way through these threads, Miguel? It's been mentioned at least a few times that Apple knows about the issue and are looking into it and working on it.

Sep 21, 2009 6:58 PM in response to Kurt Lang

Has an Apple employee actually posted on this (or the other) thread confirming that? I didn't see any.
The thing is, these forums are mainly for users to help other users. In this case, no one besides Apple's engineers can help solve the problem. Engineers don't act on forum posts, they act on bugs. And bugs get prioritized according to several factors, which include gravity and occurrence. Just because one or two people logged a bug regarding this issue doesn't mean it will get addressed appropriately. All users that reported a problem on this (or the other) thread should log a corresponding bug.

TildeBee

Level 7

31,923 points

Sep 21, 2009 7:12 PM in response to MiguelSousa

Miquel --

Kurt knows exactly whereof he speaks.
It's being discussed ad nauseum with the powers that be.
So, chill out, and take Kurt at his word.

Sep 22, 2009 3:19 AM in response to TildeBee

I also know what I'm talking about. And I'm more than chilled out.

Kurt Lang

Level 9

62,190 points

Sep 22, 2009 6:12 AM in response to MiguelSousa

Has an Apple employee actually posted on this (or the other) thread confirming that?

Very rarely will an Apple employee post in the forums, but that doesn't mean they don't read them.

Just because one or two people logged a bug regarding this issue doesn't mean it will get addressed appropriately.

And where did you come up with that theory? A bug only needs to be reported once. If you use the Bug Reporter system, they go directly to the engineers. They've never failed to respond.

So once again - yes, they know about the font leading issue and are working on it. This was a direct response to me from an Apple engineer on my bug report. I have no reason to think they're lying.

All users that reported a problem on this (or the other) thread should log a corresponding bug.

Again, not necessary. A flood of complaints works to convey urgency when a company is still unaware of an issue. It does nothing when it's already being addressed.

Mattspin

Level 1

0 points

Sep 22, 2009 6:12 AM in response to narc_monkey

We're seeing this in Adobe Flash. Certain fonts (some postscript fonts so far...TheMix is the one that's really causing us trouble) have shifted in our layout and complete messed our files us. The same files still display just fine under Leopard. The OS just seems to display them differently. Very frustrating.

Sep 22, 2009 11:05 AM in response to Kurt Lang

Very rarely will an Apple employee post in the forums, but that doesn't mean they don't read them.

Likewise it doesn't mean that they do read them. Perhaps this is one of those rare occasions where they need to come out.

And where did you come up with that theory?

It's not a theory, it's a fact. I work for a software company (Adobe) and I'm aware of how these things are processed.

A bug only needs to be reported once.

What makes you so sure that the bug you reported when fixed will take care of everyone's problems?

If you use the Bug Reporter system, they go directly to the engineers. They've never failed to respond.

I believe that.

So once again - yes, they know about the font leading issue and are working on it. This was a direct response to me from an Apple engineer on my bug report. I have no reason to think they're lying.

I'll take your word on that.

Again, not necessary. A flood of complaints works to convey urgency when a company is still unaware of an issue. It does nothing when it's already being addressed.

Again, what guarantees can you give that the bug you logged when fixed will take care of everyone's problems? Have you been able to reproduce all the issues reported in this and the other thread on your machine? Have you included those reports on your bug's description?

Kurt Lang

Level 9

62,190 points

Sep 22, 2009 11:17 AM in response to MiguelSousa

Likewise it doesn't mean that they do read them.

True enough. Especially on a site this large. But the Level 4 and 5 members have brought these threads to the attention of the hosts (we have direct access to talk to them). They then bounce our concerns up the chain of command. I also included links to these threads in the bug report I submitted.

I work for a software company (Adobe) and I'm aware of how these things are processed.

One company's policy or procedures is not a 100% reflection of how all of them work.

What makes you so sure that the bug you reported when fixed will take care of everyone's problems?

A fair answer is to that is, what makes you think it won't? We'll find out with the next point update if anything has been done to address the issue. Until then, we're just arguing amongst ourselves, which does nothing to change the situation. If it's still not fixed in 10.6.2, then people who rely on accurate font rendering should definitely raise a stink. More so than they are now.

Again, what guarantees can you give that the bug you logged when fixed will take care of everyone's problems? Have you been able to reproduce all the issues reported in this and the other thread on your machine? Have you included those reports on your bug's description?

I can't guarantee anything. I said that Apple has told me they're aware of it and are working on it. Yes, I have been able to reproduce the same problems. Yes, I included those issues in my bug report.

Sep 22, 2009 1:36 PM in response to Kurt Lang

A fair answer is to that is, what makes you think it won't? We'll find out with the next point update if anything has been done to address the issue. Until then, we're just arguing amongst ourselves, which does nothing to change the situation. If it's still not fixed in 10.6.2, then people who rely on accurate font rendering should definitely raise a stink. More so than they are now.

To me that's not a fair answer, and it's probably not a fair answer to a lot of other users as well. People are being affected by this problem as of now. Why wait until after 10.6.2? Right, there's no point on arguing because your argument just doesn't make sense.

I can't guarantee anything.

Then please stop saying that people don't need to submit their own bugs.

Mattspin

Level 1

0 points

Sep 22, 2009 2:22 PM in response to narc_monkey

We seeing some pretty bad shifting with TheMix in Flash after Snow Leopard. Shifts all the type down and breaks our layouts. Grrrrr.

Kurt Lang

Level 9

62,190 points

Sep 22, 2009 2:53 PM in response to MiguelSousa

To me that's not a fair answer, and it's probably not a fair answer to a lot of other users as well.

How is it not fair? Your question was conjecture, as was my answer. Neither had any merit.

People are being affected by this problem as of now. Why wait until after 10.6.2?

And just how do you expect it to be fixed before that? I've never know Apple to fix ONE problem at a time. If they do anything to fix this, it won't be until 10.6.2 is released.

Right, there's no point on arguing because your argument just doesn't make sense.

And yours does? Here's the real answer, which has been noted by various users in numerous posts in the Snow Leopard forums. If you're using your Mac to make a living, why in the world did you jump on a new operating system with no easy way to go back to Leopard? If you didn't take the precautions to fall back, you've no one to blame but yourself.

Then please stop saying that people don't need to submit their own bugs.

Once again. It will do NO GOOD to keep reporting the SAME bug over and over. Report it if you somehow think it will speed things up. It's not like I or anyone can stop you. But you will be wasting your time.

Sep 22, 2009 3:25 PM in response to Kurt Lang

How is it not fair? Your question was conjecture, as was my answer. Neither had any merit.
...
And just how do you expect it to be fixed before that? I've never know Apple to fix ONE problem at a time. If they do anything to fix this, it won't be until 10.6.2 is released.
...
And yours does?

Look, I was mainly reacting to your idea of "let's wait for 10.6.2 and see if everything got fixed; if it's not, then let's make noise about it, again; this time around we should make the real noise". I mean, why not do everything now and get over it? Unless this is a game for you...

Once again. It will do NO GOOD to keep reporting the SAME bug over and over. Report it if you somehow think it will speed things up. It's not like I or anyone can stop you. But you will be wasting your time.

My point is, it doesn't seem to be ONE single problem because people are reporting different things, so there's no SAME.

Anyways, I think I've made my points clear enough already, so I'll excuse myself.

Kurt Lang

Level 9

62,190 points

Sep 23, 2009 5:59 AM in response to MiguelSousa

Look, I was mainly reacting to your idea of "let's wait for 10.6.2 and see if everything got fixed;

Ah, now I see your point. I agree whole heartedly that it would be great if Apple would address the problem as soon as possible. Ahead of everything else if necessary. It's just that I can be almost absolutely certain we won't see any possible fix until 10.6.2 is released. That's just the way Apple has always done things, at least from my experience the last 12 years or so. I've seen seen a fix for only one OS issue at a time.

Kurt Lang

Level 9

62,190 points

Sep 23, 2009 6:21 AM in response to Kurt Lang

I've seen seen a fix for only one OS issue at a time.

Typo. I've never seen a fix for only one OS issue at a time.

Altered Font Spacing Crippling for Designers